Re: William Whipple Warren
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In reply to:
Re: William Whipple Warren
alice smith 7/17/07
Hey Alice and Norma --
I was going to post this yesterday.I was about 3/4 finished going through all of my resources when the POWER WENT OUT for about 3 hours -- so, I went to bed, instead ... 8>].For some reason, when I first started this reply, I decided to continually save it to disk as I went along -- something I NEVER do!HAH!Power out, computer crashed -- didn't lose a single word!!!MAN!I would have been really angry, because I had already MANUALLY transcribed a great deal of the information from digital images into the text body below.Wonder where the hunch came from?-- Praise the LORD!!!
Thanks Norma --
I knew, if I waited long enough, you would evemtually come in here.There is really TOO MUCH UP IN THE AIR about MA/CT Warren genealogy, where EVERYBODY CLAIMS to be of the Mayflower line WITHOUT SOLID PROOF!
And, Hi Alice --
I will show you why further on in this message, but Alice, I'm sorry to say, your Warrens are NOT descended from the Mayflower line.This is also what Norma says.Additionally, and I believe this has previously been discussed at great length somewhere else on this Forum, Gen. Joseph Warren's Lineage dead-ends at "Peter Warren, Mariner," who arrived in Boston no later than 1659 (bought land from Thomas Atkinson in Boston, March 8, 1659).There is, in the entire genealogical community, absolutely no pretense that Gen. Joseph Warren was of the Richard of the Mayflower line, or even closely related to it.
Additionally, there is also NO EVIDENCE that Gen. Joseph Warren was in the same line as ANY KNOWN Abraham Warren, regardless of generation or whether residence was in MA, CT or NY -- rather, there is plenty of evidence AGAINST this idea.
Please bear with me -- I'm not attacking either your honesty or your integrity.I am only trying to bring a little genealogical guidance to light so that you might better understand what's going on here.Hopefully, rather than souring your palate, this will provide the real spark you need to actively and effectively investigate your own family background!
So, let me make a possible REAL BAD GUESS, here.As I have NO BACKGROUND or proof, this may be totally the wrong direction -- this is just a completely UNINFORMED intuitive hunch.I think you should consider investigating the descendants of the Abraham Warren who settled in Salem, MA, in 1637, then in Ipswich, MA, 1648.This will be HARD -- there is very little information available on anyone in this line.
The earliest possible mention I can find of YOUR Abraham is a purchase of a 15-acre lot in the "West Farms" (now Newington) of Wethersfield (Hartford County, CT) on May 29, 1708.I can find no statement of where he came from.I DID find this, however (note that he quotes official VRs -- more about this later):
Source:
Adams, Sherman W.. "The history of ancient Wethersfield, Connecticut : comprising the present towns of Wethersfield, Rocky Hill, and Newington : and of Glastonbury prior to its incorporation in 1693, from date of earliest settlement until the present time." 2 Vols. New York: Grafton Press, 1904.:
Vol. II: "Genealogies and Biographies"
On Page 752 (my PERSONAL transcription -- VERBATIM!):
"WARREN, (Woren, Woring, Warrin), ABRAHAM, prob. son of William, of Htfd. (My Note: "Hartford"), was one of the signers of the petit. of 1712, for church privileges in the West Farms (Newington); m. Experience (dau. John) STEVENS, 10 Jan., 1704-5.
"Children (Weth. Rec.; bp. Mix MSS.):
"1. Abigail, b. 1 Oct., 1706; bp. 6 Apl., 1707.
"2. Abraham, b. 17, bp. 21 Sept., 1707.
"3. Daniel, b. 1, bp. 5 Feb., 1709-10.
"4. Experience, b. 9, bp. 15 June, 1712.
"5. Hannah, b. 19, bp. 24 Oct., 1714.
"6. William, b. 24 Jan., 1717.
"7. Elizabeth, b. 26 Mch., bp. 23 Apl., 1719.
"8. Temperance, b. 16 May, 1720.
"9. Elisha, b. 26 Aug., 1722. - FAM. 2.
"10. Daniel, b. 3 June, 1726.
"FAM. 2 - ELISHA,2 (Ab'm,1), b. 1722; m. 9 May, 1747, Rhoda ANDRUS.
"Children (Weth. Rec.& N.C.R):
"1. Abraham, b. 13 Sept., bp. 13 Dec., 1747.
"2. Hannah, b. 3 Dec., 1749; d. 12 Apl., 1751.
"3. Hannah, b. 4, bp. 5 Jan. 1752."
There is no REAL evidence to support the above claim that Abraham was the son of William Warren of Hartford.No one really knows where Abraham came from.It is just as possible that this is a son of Abraham of Salem/Ipswich, MA.Just to show you another example of ust how messed up some of the New England genealogy can get, quite a few of the EARLY (!) histories and family genealogies in and about the Hartford area state that William died shortly after he married Elizabeth Crow, leaving her ONLY with an infant daughter.This flies in the face of the following:
Source:
BARBOUR, Lucius Barnes. ""families of Early Hartford, Connecticut." Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc.. Baltimore. 1982:
In the Section entitled, "Surnames, V-Z"
Page 633 (my PERSONAL transcription -- VERBATIM):
"WILLIAM WARREN"
"William Warren died 1689, mar/1 ? Elizabeth Crow dau of John Crow and Elizabeth Goodwin.Possibly married twice.
"Children:
"Thomas, bp Oct 22, 1671 (2 Ch Rec) m Susannah (Whiting) Thornton
"Samuel, bp Nov 1, 1674 (2 Ch Rec)
"John, m Mary
"William, m Mary Andrus
"Abraham
"And Others
"Ann, m Matthias Treat
"Elizabeth, m William Hills
"Mehitabel, m Obadiah Wood
"Hannah, m William Perry"
Note that Barbour CITES VRs for ONLY the FIRST TWO CHILDREN!This means that the rest of the children are anybody's best guess -- especially the inclusion of Abraham, which appears to me to be PURE SPECULATION!!!Additionally, he speculates WITHOUT FOUNDATION OR PROOF that William Warren could have been married twice.THIS IS THE >>> ONLY <<< GENEALOGY WHERE I FIND THIS SPECULATION!!!So, be very careful with the above information as you progress in your research -- for now, these are only IDEAS!
And finally, along this vein of thought, I have now, in the last week, been through nearly 700-800 references and looked at around 5,000 digital images regarding these Warrens.Sadly, even though we've been told ("Memoirs of William Whipple Warren") that Lyman Warren, father of Lyman Marcus Warren, was born in Hartford, I can't find ANY evidence of him there.I can't find him in ANY history or family genealogy!
I also checked MA, VT and NY for any clues.I checked VT because Wm. W. Warren, in his Ojibway history, says brothers Lyman M. and Truman A. came from VT to Lake Superior in 1818, indicating that father, Lyman, might have moved to VT from MA before moving to NY.There is a considerable Monroe County, NY, history online and I was absolutely surprised to see NO MENTION of Lyman B. Warren, in any form, in this entire history!
Lyman Warren, according to the various Census, lived (1800 and 1810) in Champlain, Clinton County, NY (his father, Abraham, is ALSO here at that time); (1820) in Clarkson, Genesee County, NY; and, (1830-1850) in Clarkson, Monroe County NY.Abraham, since he is said to have died in NY ca. 1825, is probably living in the household of his son, Lyman, on the 1810 and 1820 Censuses.I kind of think the "came from VT" idea is because Champlain, Clinton County, NY, is about as far north as you can go without crossing into Canada and just west of the NY/VT state borders.
Further, on the 1850 Census appears a Rebecca, 3 years older than Lyman, also from CT -- this must be his 2nd wife, Rebecca Sweet.Samuel Jones Spaulding's 1897-published "Spaulding Memorial" notes that "7985. Sidney Spaulding" married Delia Warren on April 10, 1839, in Clarkson and states "she was the daughter of Lyman Warren and Rebecca Sweet, and was b. Oct. 8, 1818."
This STILL blows my mind that a family of such long standing and early arrival doesn't show up in the Monroe County histories.I also searched through Genesee and Clinton County histories -- to no avail.
In this case, I am NOT trying to refute Lyman (son of Abraham) Warren's place of birth.I would say it is most probable that he WAS born in Hartford -- there are just no VRs on him ANYWHERE in the USA, other than this:
Source:
Palmer, Charles J.. "History of town of Lanesborough, Massachusetts, 1741-1905.". unknown: unknown, 1990.
Appendix VIII, "Births, deaths and marriages in early history of the town"
Page 116 (my PERSONAL transcription -- VERBATIM):
"Record of marriages of Lanesboro people from other sources than Town Records:
" ...
" ...
"Lyman Warren and Mercy Whipple, May 29, 1792."
I'm not exactly certain what is meant by "other sources than Town Records," but this type of citation often means the source is taken from church records or newspaper publications (yes, even in THOSE days!).Oddly, this record is repeated again on Page 118 with the same information and no further clarification.
There are so many unfounded claims about various genealogies in the New England area that the whole thing is a BIG MESS.Fortunately, from the VERY BEGINNING of time (AD 1620) the Vital Records (VRs) in the Plymouth Colony and in the Massachusetts Bay-South Shore area were very well kept.
It is THESE VITAL RECORDS, and ONLY these records, that are acceptable FOR REASONS OF GENEALOGICAL PROOF of heritage from the original settlers in these areas.For instance, the only way you get membership in the Mayflower Society is if your own documentation agrees PRECISELY with these VRs -- any variation and your membership application is disapproved!Norma is using these VRs and has complete copies of most of these pertaining to Warrens throughout Massachusetts.
Virginia A. Rogers, in the Warren genealogy you have, CAN NOT POSSIBLY have cited ANY of these sources to substantiate Abraham Warren as being a son of Capt. Benjamin Warren.These VRs do NOT show a child of Benjamin named Abraham -- therefore, THERE WAS NOT ONE!!!
I am NOT saying Rogers is LYING.I am saying that she simply regurgitated someone else's "genealogy," without question or personal hands-on research, from other old genealogical snippets and old "family oral tradition" (which, in itself, I have consistently found to be COMPLETELY UNRELIABLE any further back than 4 generations!).Therefore, this amounts to nothing other than someone's (or an ENTIRE FAMILY's) WISH LIST!Here, from two different links, is a description of your source:
1. From Warren M. "Sandy" Gordon's website at:
http://www.gordons.ws/s2.htmhttp://www.gordons.ws/s2.htm
. . Virginia A. Rogers, "The Warren Family of Minnesota," (n.p.: Unpublished, 1984).
2.From Weldon Whipple's website at:
http://genweb.whipple.org/d0365/I43436.htmlhttp://genweb.whipple.org/d0365/I43436.html
!SOURCE: E-mail from Warren M. "Sandy" Gordon to Weldon Whipple, 20 Oct 2002. Cites "The Warren Family of Minnesota" by Virginia A. Rogers, "a genealogist for the Bureau of Indian Affairs (Route 2, Box FC 200, Cass Lake, Minnesota 56633). It was stamped 'Received by the Reservation Business Committee on March 1, 1984.' I have a photocopy of a hand-typed document so I don't think this was ever a published document."
So, Rogers was merely a BIA employee at the Cass Lake Agency in the mid 1980's and was simply doing a re-write of the Chippewa history.This may have been in response to a need for a commemorative celebration presentation.The Ojibwe officially arrived, after an 11-day journey, at White Earth at Noon on June 14, 1868 (HEY! -- Flag Day! -- go figure!) and, at least as late as 1907, celebrated this date every year.Maybe a commemorative celebration with Rogers' Warren genealogy as part of the presented history was planned for the 120th Anniversary, which would have been in 1988, four years after Rogers' wrote it.
The fact that Rogers' Warren genealogy was UNPUBLISHED means that it ENTIRELY LACKS any accreditation for genealogical purposes, whatever.Having just, about two years ago, completed about 8 years of collaboration in a PUBLISHED and FULLY-ACCREDITED genealogy (now on file at the New England Historical and Genealogical Society, Boston, MA) on the Massachusetts Bay-South Shore (Hingham and Hull) Colliers, I know what this means and how involved this is.
Rogers' Warren genealogy was first laid out at GREAT length in 1907 by Julia A. (Warren) Spears, SISTER of William Whipple Warren, within a section on the establishment of the White Earth Reservation, Pages 239-274 of Alvin A. Wilcox's "A pioneer History of Becker County," Pioneer Press Company:Saint Paul, 1907. I am almost positive that Rogers used this history as the primary, if not the ONLY, source for the Warren Genealogy she wrote.
I have access to a digital photographic copy of the FULL VOLUME of this history through one of my online subscriptions and I took about three hours a couple nights ago to read through and ruminate upon this whole history.It is really VERY interesting and enlightening!
There is A LOT OF STUFF about Truman A. Warren in this history.In my own mind, after reading this, it turns out that Truman was FAR MORE important in his service to the Ojibwe than was his more widely-acclaimed brother, William Whipple Warren.He was the person MOST RESPONSIBLE for organizing and leading the Ojibwe people from their old grounds at Crow Wing and Gull Lake to the White Earth Reservation.
On Page 238 of this book is a PICTURE of Truman A. Warren.On this same page are pictures of Paul Beaulieu (who was the person who preceded the Ojibwe to White Earth to began the initial preparations), the much-maligned and evil Chief Hole-in-the-day (who threatened to kill any of the Indians who dared to undertake the journey from Crow Wing to White Earth) and (this is a GREAT FIND and a GREAT PIC!) Chief White Cloud (the GRANDFATHER of Lyman M. Warren's wife, Mary Cadotte, and one of the 4-5 GRAND CHIEFS of ALL the Ojibwe! -- Wm. W. Warren wrote that he listened to many important tribal stories and histories over the years sitting at White Cloud's knee).There is also a picture of Julia A. (Warren) Spears on Page 245 of this book.
The funny thing is that, since I've been doing this William/Truman research, I have seen pictures of BOTH Wm. Whipple Warren and Truman A. Warren -- and they look almost exactly like a picture I have in the album that used to belong to my own great grandmother, Eva Elizabeth (Warren) Collier.This is a picture taken in the mid-1850's of her Uncle Julius Warren, brother to her father and my gr-gr-grandfather, Alvin Warren.
Julius was b. ca. 1821 somewhere in NY and was a casualty very early on in the Civil War in one of the Wisc. Infantries.So, he was in the exact same age group as Wm. Whipple Warren and Truman A. Warren (slightly older, maybe).Julius did NOT have a single drop of Native American blood in his veins!His currently unknown father is believed (by as yet unproven and probably incorrect "family oral tradition") to be an immigrant from Ireland.In spite of the vastly differing heritages, the similarities of my Julius to Wm. W. and Truman A. are DEFINITELY unmistakeable!
Anyway, you should try to get a copy of the whole Becker County history, if you can.Sadly, it doesn't answer your question about "Kunzie," or give any other name for any woman who could have been Truman's wife, although it DOES give the Indian name of Truman's "mother-in-law" -- Julia calls her "Gin-gion-cumig-oke" and states she was the first death at the White Earth Reservation, on September 1, 1868.
Also found 3 or 4 places in this history is mention of JAMES WARREN, a full-white, non-Indian, carpenter employed by the U.S. Government to help establish and build the "new" Reservation at White Earth.James was among probably the first 10 people to arrive at White Earth, along with Paul Beaulieu, to get things started -- arriving several weeks ahead of the Ojibwe and Truman A. Warren, themselves.James was also instrumental in the building of the first sawmill, which was done by the end of Summer, 1868, during the establishment of the Reservation.
James remained at the Reservation as a farmer and died there in 1882, according to the history,"leaving a wife and seven children behind ... ."One of these children would be the "William T. Warren," b. ca. 1855-58, that started off this whole discussion in the first place.
An interesting item in this history is that Julia A. (Warren) Spears writes that this James Warren was married to her sister (thus, also SISTER of Wm. Whipple Warren) SOPHIA WARREN!
>>> NORMA -- I HOPE YOU CAUGHT THAT !!! <<<
This means that, while William T. Warren is NOT William V. "Tylor" Warren and, therefore, NOT a son of Wm. Whipple Warren, he IS the son of Wm. W.'s SISTER, SOPHIA, and STILL a GRANDSON of Lyman M. Warren, just as "Tylor" is.His father, James Warren, unrelated white guy, just happened to have the same surname!
Although it's not a complete job (like, who's "Kunzie"? -- I am still trying to find the answer to this question, Alice), Julia goes a long way in this history to unravel almost all of the Warren family relationships.
Enough of this somewhat OFF TOPIC discussion!!!Alice, Norma is DEFINITELY the Warren expert on this GenForum.She DOES have copies of almost all of the IMPORTANT documents regarding Warren families, regardless where they originated in the USA.
Why?Well, the main theory is, and I believe this, ALL true Warrens originate with William Warren, who campaigned alongside that famous Norman, William the Conqueror, in the Battle of Hastings in 1066.They are NOT to be confused with the Warings, nor even the Ywarrinanes and/or Murnanes originally of Ireland, many of whose surnames eventually evolved into Warren.
With this in mind, even though I might say I am unrelated to you through my own Warrens, somewhere, 7-10 centuries ago, you and I had a common ancestor of the Warren line in Jolly Olde England!Norma's project is to bring as many of these relationships to light as possible.
This same concept also applies to your Warren line being related to the Richard of the Mayflower -- likely you ARE related to this line and so am I -- it's just that NEITHER of us is DIRECTLY DESCENDED from this Mayflower line, as is wrongly claimed by the descendants of Lyman Marcus Warren!Just as you and I are NOT closely related, neither are EITHER of us closely related to either the Richard of the Mayflower line or the Dr. (Gen.) Joseph Warren/Peter, the Mariner line.
Alice, this has been an awful lot of words just to say that you should be prepared to understand that, where you and Norma disagree on the origin of your line, Norma has the ACCEPTED and ACCREDITED documentation and has the BULLET-PROOF case!
You now need to reassess your position on your family lineage!And, of course, both Norma and I will be more than happy to do whatever we can to help you with this.
Best regards,
Mike Collier
Oak Harbor, WA
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John WARREN Vermont 11th Regt. Inf. ~ buried Oct. 3, 1814 Erie Co., NY
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Re: William Whipple Warren
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