Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
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In reply to:
Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
Paulyne Rutherford Taylor 9/17/01
Thanks, I found a very long message on this specific subject.It requires a reply, which I'm posting here as well because of the subject matter.
I have stripped out needless repetition and material not pertinent to the genealogical points at issue.My theory – mainly chronological - is that Margaret Erskine, wife of James Rutherford could not have been a daughter of Thomas, 2nd Lord Erskine.In any case she is not supported by Scots Peerage, I know absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.However compelling evidence must be presented to overturn her absence from SP.The poster has mixed up several generations of the Erskine family – confusing two entirely separate Janet Douglas wives, my comments on this post are in brackets, thus [xxxx].
Secondarily, Janet Douglas, wife of Thomas, 2nd Lord Erskine was NOT the granddaughter of King James I.This is clearly impossible.
-----------11. Sir Robert Erskine, 1st Laird[Lord, quite different] of Erskine died 1451-53married Elizabeth Lindsay - granddaughter of Robert II King of Scotland. Sir Robert Erskine, born before 1343,
[I presume this is a typo for 1373 ?, he is unlikely to had lived over 109 years !]
died between 7 Sep 1451 and 6 Nov 1452 in Scotland. He was one of the most prominent members of the family, acted as High Chamberlain of Scotland, and had great influence on public affairs of his time.
During the 1430's Sir Robert Erskine inherited the Earldom of Mar. His son, Thomas Erkine was deprived of inheriting the Earldom, 10 years later receiving a barony instead as Lord Erskine. The Erskines were the guardians of the young King James IV during his minority; thereafter to be guardians to 5 generations of royalty. The Erskines were heavily involved in Scottish rule, and one of the first to reach a prominent position was Sir Robert de Erskine, who was Great Chamberlain of Scotland, and constable and keeper of the castles of Stirling, Edinburgh, Dumbarton until his death in 1385. In 1435 Sir Robert Erskine took the ancient Celtic title of Earl of Mar, until his son had to rescind the title under the ruling of James II in 1457. Ten years later he was made Lord of Erskine.
[Referred to as Lord Erskine after 1438 SP V, p. 601]
On 22 April 1438, Sir Robert Erskine, grandfather of Margaret Erskine Rutherfurd, claimed the title of The Earl of Mar in right of his mother Lady Janet Douglas Erskine,
[In right of his mother Janet Keith, descendant of Gratney, 7th Earl .His father had protested in 1391 concerning his wife’s right to ½ of the Earldom. SP V, p. 601]
the second heir to Countess Isabel. In 1449, King James II took control of the Erskine estates. The title passed to his second son Prince John, who was executed for treason against James III. Next was Cochrane, who was hanged over the bridge at Lauder in 1482. In 1486 it was granted to Alexander Stewart (Duke of Ross) son of James III. It reverted to the Crown when he died. In February 1562, Mary, Queen of Scots, granted the title to her illegitimate half brother, Lord James Stewart (who later became Regent). He resigned the title and it was conferred by Queen Mary on John, 5th Lord Erskine, descendant and male heir of Sir Robert Erskine.
Erskine, Robert, Lord Erskine
Acceded: 1438
Died: 1451
The Complete Peerage vol.V,p.104.
Father: Erskine, Thomas, Sir
Mother: Keith, Janet
Married AFT 20 DEC 1400 to Lindsay, Elizabeth
[The date of an agreement between Thomas Erskine and David, Earl of Crawford, dated at Brechin, by writit was agreed that Sir Robert Erskine should marry a daughter - probably Elizabeth - of the Earl. SP V, p. 604]
Lindsay, Elizabeth
Father: Lindsay, David of Crawford, Earl of Crawford 1st, b. ABT 1360
Mother: Stuart, Elizabeth (Catherine)
[David, Earl of Crawford m Abt. 1384 to Elizabeth Stewart]
He died between 7 Sep 1451 and 6 Nov 1452 in Scotland.
children: [These are misplaced - children of Sir Robert]
i. Sir Thomas Erskine [father of Robert, 1st Lord]
ii. Nicholas Erskine of Kinnoull. He married, first, Jean, daughter and co-heiress of Sir John Cameron of Balegarno, and secondly, Elizabeth Keith, widow of Sir Adam Gordon.
iii. William Erskine [not mentioned in SP V, p. 596]
iv. Marion Erskine - married to Maurice Drummond, second of Concraig[This comes from the House of Drummond, there are severe chronological problems with it’s account of this branch ]
children:
i. Thomas Erskine 2nd Lord of Erskine
ii. Elizabeth Erskine, b. c1350, m. Sir Henry Douglas, d. Aft 30 Jan 1468
iii. Christian Erskine, d. Aft 1479, m. Patrick de Graham, d. 1466
iv. Janet Erskine, b. Aft 1400, m. 24 Apr 1421, Walter Stewart, d. 24 May 1425
------------------------------------- generation 12 ---------------------------------------
------------12. Sir Thomas Erskine 2nd Lord of Erskine
born before 1354
died before 1404
[These are the dates for Thomas, father of the 1st Lord !]
Parents: Sir Robert Erskine 1st Lord Erskine and Elizabeth Lindsay.
1st wife: Janet Douglas, heiress of Dalkeith, who died at the birth of her first child[This Janet Douglas was the 1st wife ofThomas, father of the 1st Lord]
He was married to Janet Douglas before 1445 in Scotland.
Douglas' Peerage Vol. 5, pg. 105 - "He married, before 1445, Janet Douglas States in Douglas' Peerage she is the daughter of James, Earl of Morton, granddaughter of King James I.
[This is impossible, Janet dau of James, Earl of Morton by Joan, dau of King James I cannot have been born before 1459 – the date of her parent’s marriage.She married Bef. 1 Feb 1480/1 to Patrick Hepburn, 1st Earl of Bothwell, and died Bef. 1491.IfJanet Douglas, wife of Thomas, 2nd Lord Erskine was of the Morton family then she came from a previous generation, nothing can be stated with any certainty.She was his wife in Aug 1489]
2nd wife: Janet Keith or Barclay, widow of Sir David Barclay;
It was Janet's heritage that connected the Erskine family with the Earldom of Mar.
[Janet Keith was the 2nd wife ofThomas, father of the 1st Lord – vide supra]
children:[These are misplaced - children of Sir Thomas, father of the 1st Lord]
i. - Sir Robert Erskine
ii. - John Erskine - ancestor of the Erskines of Dun and of Pittodrie
iii. - Elizabeth Erskine - married to Duncan Wemyss of Rires
iv. - Margaret Erskine - married to Lord James Rutherfurd[Two of her ?!?]
Children were:
Alexander Erskine 3rd Lord Erskine
Helen Erskine
Isobel Erskine
Elizabeth Erskine
Mariota Erskine
Margaret Erskine - married Lord James Rutherfurd II[Not shown in SP V, p. 606-7.If their first child – Peter was b Abt. 1450 then she CANNOT have been born after 1435.Her supposed parents were married Bef .1445 – vide supra.Thomas d in or Abt. 1493, his parents m Aft. 1400, he was no doubt of age in 1441 – therefore his birth had to occur between 1401-20, probably much towards the end of that range given his death date]
More Replies:
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
Billye J. Jobe 10/19/03
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
Paulyne Rutherford Taylor 9/18/01
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
9/18/01
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
9/27/01
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
Paulyne Rutherford Taylor 9/19/01
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
9/21/01
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford
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Re: Mgt ERSKINE m Jas Rutherford