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Re: Yahoo Hap G Discussion Group- Ray Banks analysis of Haplo G POOLEs
Posted by: Dee Bardes (ID *****8579) Date: May 29, 2011 at 17:35:36
In Reply to: Yahoo Hap G Discussion Group : New FTDNA DNA Kit Specials by Bill VH_Yahoo Hap G Discussion Group of 4191

Hello Bill-

I am glad to have reached you via my previous emails, and your response, to clear up the apparent confusion regarding the FTDNA lab and my POOLE DNA Project's Join Request process. With all the new lab tests, and the new complicated software/control systems (GAP 2.0), yes project administration is always busy! As an old technologist, these user concerns/tech implementation cycles are de rigour with increased automation.

But while we are talking about the very large group of men in USA with surnames of POOL, POOLE, et al who have been tested as having G Haplogroup, G1, et al, I have to share the tremendous research included in this email which I received today from Ray Banks. So I am pasting this below, and hope that all my POOLEs who show G, and G1 Haplo appreciate all of the progress being made, by those doing the advanced tests. (Yes, please order advanced tests in all haplos) to empower progress like this to hopefully occur....

A discussion on this topic might be very well suited to your Haplo G Discussion Group. Thanks so much for hosting that! So some of you POOL/POOLE/PUHL/PFUHL/POLE readers have the heritage discussed by Ray below--so study this, and sponsor kits for cousins! If you haven't tested yet, its a moving target, so start soon.

Dee in Cincy

[ Dee is pasting Ray Banks' email below, so he is the expert here, not me...]

"This is Ray Banks, unpaid volunteer administrator of the Haplogroup G project to which you belong, with a yearly news update.

This e-mail is intended as part of an annual news update for all our 2528 haplogroup G members. Some of you also subscribe to the newsletter which is a monthly mailing containing updates. The software at Family Tree DNA has made available a feature that allows directing e-mails just to persons in specific subgroups. And this is what is happening here. You are receiving this because of the category in which you are listed in the project.

You may be surprised to learn that you are being listed in this category:

G2a3b1a2 -- predicted L497+

We have news to report on the origin of this group and how it came to be one of the latest G groups -- as well as why you are strongly predicted to be part of this group.

But first, a brief review of the DNA terms. You all have had markers tested which provided a series of numbers. If someone has the same or almost the same marker values, he is closest related to you. These marker values can change slowly. Some of you have also have the other type testing -- that for SNP mutations. These, in contrast, are permanent mutations. All G persons have the M201 (or plain G) mutation. Then categories are established based on how many other G SNP mutations one has. Those in G2a3b1a2 have 8 G mutations they share, corresponding to the eight elements of the G2a3b1a2 name. The seventh one was first indentified about 1.5 yrs. ago, and the eighth -- and most specific for you (L497) -- was first identified in January of this year and made an official category earlier this month.

We have also been able to identify some additional categories within G based on shared oddities in marker values. These value oddities are not guaranteed to be permanent, but they typically are as valuable as the SNP mutations in identifying subgroups. In total, we have now identified 81 subgroups within haplogroup G, about 20 identified in the last year. We recently abolished some categories based on marker values clustering because we have better alternatives.

Those of you in the G2a3b1a category have two identifying, shared mutations. One is the L497 mutation. And the other is the value of 13 at the marker DYS388. In virtually all other G persons, the value at this slowly mutating marker is 12.

Update on Origins of the G2a3b1a2 Subgroup.

Over time we have been collecting lots of 67-marker samples within the G2a3b1a2 subgroup. You are a very large subgroup accounting for about 2% of the population of Europe. These 67-marker samples allow a reasonably good estimate of how long ago a common ancestor lived when comparing samples. Some patterns have emerged. Men from both the British Isles and southern Germany seem to share common ancestors with men from Switzerland about the time of the Roman Empire. Most of our Swiss samples are from eastern Switzerland. For those with an interest in history, you will be scratching your head trying to determine what relationship Switzerland would have to the British Isles.

Various scenarios have been proposed. The Sarmatian and Alan mercenaries of the Roman Empire have been proposed as the explanation, but it is clear now that the area from which these groups came does not have the type of G we see in Europe, and there are other problems too detailed to explain here. Miners have been proposed, but their emigration to Britain was later. Others have proposed dozens of other groups, but without any genetic evidence -- which is critical.

The latest theory that has the most interest involves the Raetians of eastern Switzerland. Although scholars are divided over this issue, some think the Raetians are a type of Etruscans. The Etruscans are thought to have come to northern Italy from the Near East, and they definitely arrived there before the establishment of the Roman Empire. The Raetians were added to the Romans' empire soon after its establishment, and they were known for eager enlistments as Roman auxiliaries. Two of the major locations to which they were sent were Britannica and southwestern Germany, the areas where men unusually closely related to these Swiss G2a31ba2 men are located today. It is to be noted that in Britain and Germany that the G2a3b1a2 men closely related to Swiss men also have other Swiss as their most distant G2a3b1a2 matches, indicating a G mixture among the Swiss over a prolonged period. In addition, those Swiss nearest to Brits and Germans include a variety of Swiss G2a3b1a2 men -- not just the same men.

So at present this seems the most appealing explanation for Swiss, British and German G2a3b1a2, but the evidence is far from perfect. For those of you from other countries, the number of samples is too small presently to make firm conclusions due to the lack of 67-marker samples. If G2a3b1a2 is Etruscan, Italian Etruscan men would have been eligible to be Roman citizens, and thus dispersed all over the Roman Empire in Roman legions. This might explain the G2a3b1a2 in other areas. Haplogroup G is far less common north of the old borders of the Roman Empire than south of it. Preliminary info from Italy and the Benelux countries is that the percentage of Swiss-related G2a3b1a men is far smaller there than in Britain and Germany, but we need many more samples. We are also looking at the possibility that another large G group in Europe (G2a3b1a1a -L13+) might have their origins among more easterly Raetians. Haplogroup G is known to be unusually common in western Austria (to the east of Switzerland), but we only have one 67-marker G2a3b1a2 sample from there, and it is not closely related to the Swiss.

This Raetian connection is all very speculative, and just the latest working theory.

Update on Genetic Testing of G2a3b1a2 Persons.

A general advisory: only one person within a surname group is needed to confirm placement in one of our subgroups. Because they are old mutations, persons recently related will have the same findings.

Several months ago, Family Tree DNA updated its deep clade test which has many new G SNPs included. Unfortuntely, L497 was confirmed as a useful new test too late for this deep clade update. It will probably be several years before the deep clade test is updated again. Until then, G2a3b1a2 - L497 will not appear on the green-colored haplogroup designations that are found in some Family Tree DNA displays or in their charts. L497 is included in the chart at ISOGG, the clearinghouse for SNP categories.

Because you are known to also have a marker oddity (DYS388=13), in almost all cases it is almost guaranteed what the outcome of both the deep clade test and L497 will be for you. When you are L497+, it is also 100% guaranteed you will be positive for the seven SNPs relevant to you that are in the deep clade test and are older than L497. So having the deep clade test (instead of L497) is not a good use of money for you. One cannot be L497+ unless he has the other seven SNPs in the deep clade test as well, and L497 is the most specific and recent one among the eight SNPs that make up the G2a3b1a2 category.

While we cannot strongly recommend DYS388=13 men test even for L497 because the outcome is very predictable, some of you will want to do so anyway. (see instructions at bottom). It is not just the DYS388=13 that makes us convinced of your L497+ status. It is also the totality of the markers you tested which are very typical for the group.

There is less than 100% confidence of L497 status, by exception, in the case of men with only 12 markers tested who have some additional marker value less often seen in L497+ men. If you are among these few men, you may want to consider testing for L497 which costs $29.
These are the few men with only 12 markers who might have some doubt about their L497 status. Those who have
DYS390=21 or
DYS392=12 or

While about 98% of you can be reliably assigned to the L497 status based on having DYS388=13, the same cannot be said of your placement in the subgroups of G2a3b1a2 - L497.

We have identified ten subgroups of G2a3b1a2. The two largest will be discussed in a little detail, and the rest quickly disposed of.

The L43/L42 subgroup (G2a3b1a2a & G2a3b1a2a1) About a quarter of L497 men fall into the L42 subgroup. This is an unsually Swiss subgroup. Several months ago -- especially with the help of co-administrator Rolf Langland -- we are now able to predict in a high percentage of cases who will be in this subgroup. However, the marker value that is the key element of this prediction is found only when 67 markers are ordered or one places an order for the less expensive single test for DYS531. L42 men all have 12 or 13 at DYS531. If no one in your surname group has tested for DYS531 ($7.20), it is possible you belong to the L43/:42 subgroup.

The DYS594=11 subgroup (G2a3b1a2i) About one in ten L497 men belong to this subgroup. This subgroup is all British and unusually Welsh and also has these strong Swiss connections. DYS594 is another marker found only in upgrades to 67 markers or by ordering it alone ($7.20). The chances of being in this subgroup are slim --but possible -- if you are from outside the British Isles in your ancestry,

The other subgroups. We have already eliminated a few of the other L497 subgroups for you because the oddities occur in the first 12 markers which everyone will have. We also have a few SNP subgroups with very limited coverage which can be eliminated for you.

The following subgroups are found only in persons with the following upgrades (though the marker can also be ordered individually):
DYS459b=10 found in 25 marker upgrades
YCA=17,20 found in 37 marker upgrades
DYS425=15 found in 67 marker upgrades

The Haplo G Categories and Updates

To see the latest list of haplogroup G categories, link to

For info on receiving the free monthly newsletter, link to

Information on Ordering Relevant Tests.

Upgrades to 37, 67 and more markers are found as standard tests to order on your results page provided by Family Tree DNA.

The other tests can all be found on your results page . Choose Order Tests. Then choose Order Advanced Tests.

To order L497: select SNP in the little window, then type in L497 and hit the Find button. [L42, L43 can be found this way also.]
SNPs cost $29 each.

To order markers DYS531, DYS594, DYS459, YCA or DYS425, select STR marker in the little window then type in the name(s) one
at a time and hit Find.

If you have not had additional testing for SNPs or for single markers in the last three yrs, they also charge abt $9 to transfer one of your swabs to Houston.


[end of paste here]

[yes, since this was sent to me, it is earmarked towards the grouping where some of my POOL and POOLEs fall- see POOLE DNA Project's colorful Y-DNA matrix, where I have moved the G/G1 grouping towards the top of the matrix to make it easier to find--it has grown substantially over the past few years- I do not have any GARRISONs with G Haplo in the GARRISON/SAEGER/SEGERS/GARRETSON section of my project- Dee ]

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