Starting Sept. 5, 2014, Genealogy.com will be making a big change. GenForum message boards, Family Tree Maker homepages, and the most popular articles will be preserved in a read-only format, while several other features will no longer be available, including member subscriptions and the Shop.
 
Learn more


Chat | Daily Search | My GenForum | Community Standards | Terms of Service
Jump to Forum
Home: General Topics: Mayflower Forum

Post FollowupReturn to Message ListingsPrint Message

Ancestry of Susanna aka Anna (Fuller) White wife of (Pilgrim) William White
Posted by: James R Hancock (ID *****8483) Date: March 03, 2003 at 15:29:42
  of 1317

MF 13 (1995) on the Family of William White, argues against Susanna being Fuller.

However, based upon more recent research (esp. of the Leiden, Holland records) by Dr. Jeremy Bangs, Museum director of the Leiden American Pilgrim Museum, indications to me are that Susanna was in-fact likely the daughter of Robert Fuller of Redenhall, England.

See the article, January 2000 - [NEHGR 154:109-118] - In this issue, Jeremy Dupertuis Bangs, Director, Leiden American Pilgrim Museum, reintroduces the issue of the identity of Edward Winslows second wife in an article entitled 'Notes From Leiden: Another look at the identity of Edward Winslow's wife, Susanna (?Fuller) White.' In particular he examines the Leiden records, their translation and conclusions drawn by Robert M. Sherman and Ruth Wilder Sherman (MF Vol 1, 1975) of research carried out in their behalf by Dr. B. N. Leverland in 1971 and repeated recently in The Great Migration Begins p.1980 (William White), p.2025 (Edward Winslow).

In brief, Bangs provides additional translation interpretations, discusses the two William Whites residing in Leiden, the age discrepancy between the Ann Fuller and Edward Winslow, as well as other perplexities, and suggests the conclusion that 'there is no conclusive evidence against the Dexters' [Henry M.and M. Dexter, The England and Holland of the Pilgrims] identification of Susanna White Winslow with Anna (Fuller) White.

Several objections have been raised:

1. The Bangs article answers the major questions, including the matter of Samuel Fuller's sister, Anna Fuller, being considered too old in 1621 to have married twenty-five-year-old Edward Winslow. Bangs argues that this concern "may be set aside as a reflection of twentieth-century attitudes, not taking into account the circumstances of the many deaths in Plymouth in the first winter and the apparent custom in the colony of rapid remarriage as a way to ensure continued care for women and children.."

2. The will of Robert Fuller is dated 19 May 1613, proved 31 May 1614. It names, among others, "to daughter Ann Fuller, twenty pounds." In Leiden, William White and Ann Fuller were betrothed on 27 Jan 1612 and married on 11 Feb 1612. Robert Fuller's will named her Ann "Fuller." Perhaps the most logical answer would be that Robert White dictated his will to a cleric and named his son Samuel and daughters Anna and Elizabeth. Several logical answers are possible - The recorder may well have added the family name for clarity - not knowing Anna had married in the Netherlands; It's also possible that the modern habits of name change weren't in such rigid form yet.

The article answers other important questions as well.

The strongest, if not irrefutable, proof that Susanna was in-fact, Anna Fuller, is taken from the Bangs article which says that the Leiden records contain...

1. The betrothal of "Willem With" (i.e. William White), woolcomber, bachelor, from England, with "En Foller" (i.e. Ann Fuller), spinster, from England, on 27 Jan 1612. He was accompanied by "Willem Jopson" (i.e. William Jepson) and "Samuel Folle" (i.e. Samuel Fuller), identitfied as "zijn bekende" (his acquaintances(s)); she was accompanied by "Rosemen Jepson" (i.e. Rosamond Jepson) and "Sara Pryst" (i.e. Sarah Priest), identified as "haer bekende" (her acquaintance(s)).

2. The betrothal on 15 Mar 1613, of Samuel Fuller (spelled correctly this time), identified as "saeywercker van Londen" (serge worker from London) and widower of "Els Glaescoock" (i.e. Alice or Elizabeth Glasscock), with "Agnijes Carpenter" (i.e. Agnes Carpenter), spinster from "Wrenton" (Wrington) in England. Samuel Fuller was accompanied by Alexander Carpenter (spelled correctly), "Willem Hoyt zijn zwager" (i.e. William Hoyt or White, his brother-in-law), "Rogier Wilsum" (i.e. Roger Wilson), and "Eduwaert Saetwoot" (i.e. Edward Southworth); Agnes Carpenter was accompanied by "Agnijs Weyt (i.e. Agnes White) and "Els Carpenter haer zuster (i.e. Alice or Elizabeth Carpenter her sister). That "Willem Hoyt" can be rendered as William White is a recognition of the problem of phoenetic spelling attempts; this rendering was given by H. M. and M. Dexter but not by E. Arber. "Hoyt" sounds very close to "White"; another attempt to spell the same sound is seen in "Weyt" in the same document. This second attempt indicates strongly that the name White is being attempted. Neither of these spellings recurs in the Leiden records in this period for betrothals, baptisms, or burials...

Therefore, Bangs says..."that William White could be described as Samuel Fuller's brother-in-law is possible (as he is in this document, granting that Hoyt is White) is possible only if Ann Fuller, who had married William White, was Samuel Fuller's sister. This is the documentary origin of the opinion that Susanna White was Samuel Fuller's sister, an identification first made by the Dexters [in The England and Holland of the Pilgrims]. As noticed above, at the time of William White's own marriage, Samuel Fuller was not yet his brother-in-law, being identified merely as his acquaintance. (The clerk was evidently quite precise in registering such identifications of relationships; this cannot be explained away as a clerical oversight)" [end].

The article by Dr. Bangs has therefore established from the Leiden records that:

1. Anna can also be Susanna.
2. An Ann Fuller m. a William White (with a Samuel Fuller was an acquaintance).
3. Samuel Fuller had a sister who was m. to a William White, by the time Samuel married.
4. Various other interactions among those people in Holland.

With this context, what are the chances that The Mayflower passenger list would then include a Samuel Fuller (3rd wife Bridget Lee came later on the Anne), and that William and Susanna (and Resolved) White, would NOT BE THE SAME PEOPLE?

And further from Dr. Bangs, "...and just how many William Whites are we supposed to believe belonged to the Pilgrim congregation? The evidence is not just that there were at least two in Leiden, but that they were also both in the congregation. Now if one of them (the one who does not appear in Leiden after 1620) was not the Mayflower passenger, we would have to suppose that a third William White joined the group from England and became a member of the Plymouth congregation later. And again how many different Fuller families are there [in Leiden] ?..."

In conclusion, while more research of the Fuller family might assist in confirmation, it is my opinion that until any new unanswerable questions against arise, the burden should be to disprove this Fuller/White connection.

James R. Hancock


Notify Administrator about this message?
Followups:

Post FollowupReturn to Message ListingsPrint Message

http://genforum.genealogy.com/pilgrims/messages/444.html
Search this forum:

Search all of GenForum:

Proximity matching
Add this forum to My GenForum Link to GenForum
Add Forum
Home |  Help |  About Us |  Site Index |  Jobs |  PRIVACY |  Affiliate
© 2007 The Generations Network