Re: De Tracy puzzle - Champernon Sources
-
In reply to:
Re: De Tracy puzzle - Champernon Sources
Joe Cochoit 12/27/10
Regarding the two Jordans, unfortunately I caught that after I posted the message. Something was nagging at me and it took another look and saw that I had an inconsistency between the two. Thanks for pointing it out though I could have missed it.
As for Henry Champernoun, I don’t think there is sufficient evidence to conclude there had to be two Henrys. Two are mentioned in AR8 (124A #28 & 29) and without being able to corroborate this, there is nothing here to sufficiently make a case for two. It would appear the information on the second Henry (#29) may possibly be conjectural as no citations are provided. Besides there are at least two additional sources that show there was only one Henry and nothing I’m aware of disproves either of them. Keats-Rohan's Domesday Descendants (pp. 377-8) shows there was one Henry who held fees of Oliver de Tracy in 1166 and who had a son Oliver by his wife Rohais. Agreeing with this is Ellacombe (Hist. Clyst St. George), who on p. 68 showed "Henricus de Campo Ernulphi of Ilfracomb" married to "Rohais, or Rose de Campo Ernalda" with a son by her, Oliver.
Do the dates themselves show there had to be two Henrys? Actually, they don’t. I took another look at Henry’s dates, a harder look at the sources I had, and did some math. According to Ellacombe, Henry’s dates of possession of Ilfracombe were 1166-92. That, in addition to his holding seven fees of Oliver de Tracy and four of Robert fitz Roy, also in 1166, indicates he may have come of age in or just before that year. Could he have been older? Yes, but we have no proof for any earlier date so for working purposes I used what we have. The last year of his possession, 1192, would seem to indicate the approximate date of his death, although AR8 has the date as ca. 1203 for the first Henry and 1210 for the second Henry. At any rate, if Henry came of age c.1166, that could give him an estimated date of birth of about 1145. So that if he died in 1192 he'd have been approximately 47 (average age of a baron at this time was 50.7 as per Jonker). If, however, he died in 1210 he'd be 63, and while the latter date (if you accept that date) is an above average age for the time, it remains conceivable. So the dates themselves in this exercise do not show anything implausible.
Then, again using the information from Ellacombe p. 68, Oliver’s dates of possession of Ilfracombe are 1201-43. If he acquired Ilfracombe in 1201, as indicated, this would leave room for two possible scenarios. First, he was a minor and Ilfracombe &c. was held in wardship until he came of age or, second, that there was another generation between the two. Since both Keats-Rohan and Ellacombe show Oliver to be the son of Henry and Rohais, it would seem to favor Oliver being under age at his father’s death. And as for a date of 1243 for his death, the statement “the ‘heirs of Oliver’ are holding his land in 1242/43” is perfectly consistent with this.
So, were there two Jordans? The evidence shows there were. Were there two Henrys, father and son followed by a grandson Oliver? Based on what I have so far I think the first Henry was the father of Oliver. This does not rule out that Oliver may have had a younger brother, Henry; but at this point I couldn’t prove it either way.
I’d be happy to see what you have on the de Tracy families once you’re ready.
Jim
More Replies:
-
Re: De Tracy puzzle - Champernon Sources
Joe Cochoit 12/28/10
-
Re: De Tracy puzzle - Champernon Sources
Jim Fina 12/29/10
-
Re: De Tracy puzzle - Champernon Sources