Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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In reply to:
Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/24/10
Hi James,
Thanks for your message.I agree with most of what you say, but the revell-Wappenbury connections do not seem correct to me.
Hope you can follow my notes, unfortunately this message system corrupts some things and its difficult to spot.I can email you direct as an attachment if you prefer.
Mike
ROBERT OF CRENDON
BHOL records at Crendon in 1185 that ‘Robert son of William Revel, a minor, held land of William Marshal of the new enfeoffment’, (1 ) but this cannot be either Robert the Sheriff of Northamptonor Robert of Cosgrove as they would not have been minors at that date, and is presumably Robert brother of Henry.It is also stated that, ‘Robert or his heir of the same name was a landowner in Crendon in 1277, when half his possessions were assigned to his creditor Benedict the Jew’,( 2) and this latter is presumably Robert son of Hugh.Elsewhere Benedict is described as ‘Benedict, son of Jacob of Oxonia, a Jew’.( 3)
ROGER REVELL
I don’t have any record of a Roger brother to Henry but I can’t access the Liber Feodorum
ROBERT NAMED IN LIBER NIGER
Robert R held lands in Norfolk, Essex and Northamptonshire — I suspect this is Robert the Sheriff of Northamptonshire extant ca 1100 to ca 1165, not Robert son of Henry
ROBERT REVELL OF SWINFORD, SON OF HENRY AND MARGARET
Robert Revell of Swinford extant ca 1163 to ca 1221.Probably the Robert Revell and his wife Cecelia holding property in Castle Street (Vico de Castello) in Chester at some date in the period 1208 to 1229.(4 , 5 )Also held land at Puxley, Swinesforde, Tiffield, Walcote and Watfield.
I had speculated that Joan de Wappenbury might be a widow (maiden name unknown).However, it is Alice, the daughter who married a Revell, not Joan her mother.Moreover, I doubt that it was this Robert who married Alice de Wappenbury as Alice was alive until 1294.
AGNES REVELL
You could well be correct
THE REVELLS AND WAPENBURYS
The connections between the Revells and the de Wappenburys have become muddled and are variously expressed on the web and in print.The best account seems to be given in the ‘Victoria County History’ part of‘A History of the County of Warwick: Volume 6’.A slightly different account, and some additional information, is given in the ‘A History of the County of Sussex Volume 7’ ( 6)
This account of the Manor of Wappenbury commences with a Thomas de Wappenbury whose son Richard was living in 1208 (and said to have been born about 1150).( 7)Richard had a son and heir Thomas who died without issue in 1235 / 6 and the estate passed to Thomas’s three sisters (said to have been born in the period 1190 to 1200).These were a Margery who married a de Wassingle, an Agnes (extant 1261) who married a Richard de Beyville,( 8) and a Joan, whose daughter Alice married a Robert Revell or Ryvel (who some say was of Swinford).
Joan also inherited one third of the Manor of Ovingdean in Sussex, and in 1253 this was held by a Robert Revell, and in 1352 had passed to Sir John Revell ( 9)Sir John gave his land to Sir Thomas Mutson (Mulston) and this gift was confirmed by Nicholas, brother to Sir John, in 1371.
The pedigree in ‘The History and Antiquities of Leicestershire’ has ‘Robert Revell of Swinford marrying Joan, daughter and heir of… Waperbury’.By 1349 the manor of Wappenbury had passed to Roger de Wappenbury, Lora the widow of Richard de Beyvill, and a John Revell
Dennis Kelsall in ‘Discovery walks in Warwickshire’ states, ‘From Saxon times, the manor was known as Fenny Newbold and remained so until the last quarter of the 12th century, when the daughter of Thomas de Wappenbury, its owner, married Robert Revell of Swinford in Leicestershire’.(10 )
To add to the confusion, it is also recorded that, ‘Joan was mother either of Hugh Revel or, more probably, of his wife Alice’, and that, ‘The main manor of Fenny Newbold came to Hugh Revel, whose son William had a grant of free warren in 1299, as did his (William’s) son John in 1327’.( 11 ) The identity of the John Revell extant 1349 is not absolutely clear.A likely contender is John the son of William of Buckeby who married Ellen, and hence the greatgrandson of Robert
Coventry City Archives hold a charter,(12 ) and a quitclaim and remise,( 13 )both dated ca 1280, that read ‘Thomas the son of Thomas de Wassyngele in Wappenbury to Lady Alice Revel for his share in the church of Onyngedene [Hunningham, Warwickshire] with advowson, 1a. in "Onynden"e field and pasturage, rendering to him a clove gillyflower every Christmas’..This establishes almost certainly that the Alice de Wappenbury who married a Revell prior to 1280 is sister to Margery de Wappenbury who married Thomas de Wassingele, as outlined above.It is presumably this Alice who in 1294 is described as Dame Alice, mother of William and Agnes, and widow of Sir Hugh.
WILLIAM OF KENT THE BELLMAKER
I have extensive documentation about William the Bellmaker, but have no proof of his parents.He might well be William son of Robert of Bukkeby and grandson of William of Newbold Revell, as there are no clashes in the dates.However, those records that refer unequivocally to William son of Robert of Bukkeby do not refer to bellmaking and those that refer unequivocally to bellmaking do not refer to Bukkeby, and there are no records of his bells in Leicestershire, Northamptonshire and Warwickshire.My notes below.
William Revell, Bell-founder, extant 1320–1340–1358–?
Durham, Northampton, Suffolk, Norfolk, Kent, Surrey and Wiltshire.(14-20) His name appears on bells in the period 1340 to 1357,( 21,22) for example in the Church of St Michael at Heckfield there is ‘a bell by William Revel of London, ca 1350’,( 23 ) but this practice of incising the maker’s name declined after 1357.Others are located at Norwich St Lawrence, The Blessed Virgin Mary at Hassingham, Rowdham St Andrew (all in Norfolk), and Longfield in Kent.Strangely, there is no mention of him in connection with the bells of Leicestershire, Northamptonshire or Warwickshire.
This William Revell is recorded as an Executor of the Bellfounder William de Raughton, first recorded in 1316, and whose will is dated 1357.(24 )From an examination of the lettering used by William Revell it would appear that he was connected with the Bellfounders Richard (Ralph) Wimbis(h) (active 1290–1315), Peter de Weston (active 1328–1347) and William Schep (active 1347–9).(25-27 )William de Raughton is a stepson of Peter de Weston who married Matilda the widow of Robert de Raughton.(28 )
The William Revell paying rent at St Botolph’s Aldgate, in Houndsditch, London, in 1358 is almost certainly William the Bellfounder. (29)Billiter (Belleyetere) Street in Aldgate was the centre of bell-making,(30)and at least two contemporary Bellfounders (William Land and Culverdon) operated at Houndsditch.( 31,32)Although proof is lacking, it is certainly plausible that this William Revell was associated with the Revells subsequently found in this area and known also to have a connection to Bukkeby.
WILLIAM, SON OF ROBERT OF BUKKEBY
There are at least three well-documented William Revells at about this date, William the son of Robert unequivocally documented in 1349 and 1354, William son of Sir John Revell senior and William the bellfounder It is not always easy to distinguish between them,(33 ) and some of the following records might have been wrongly assigned
William, son of Robert, is fairly well documented as having land in Northamptonshire (Bukkeby) and Leicestershire (Overton Quatremars).He also had some connection to the Prior of the Hospital of St John of Jerusalem.However, his date of birth and death are uncertain.Based on rather vague estimates of his father’s age it is unlikely he was born later than 1330, and in 1393 his daughter Joan is referred to as heir.(34)
William’s wife Ellen died in 1354.Their daughter, Joan, was married by 1365 suggesting that she was born not later than ca 1345, in turn suggesting that her father was born not later than ca 1325.Daughter Joan married Geoffrey de Edmundscote, but she was also known as Reynolds.(35) The adoption of the woman’s surname has been discussed in ‘A Dictionary of English Surnames’ which records ‘Richard son of Geoffrey Reynald of Edmascote otherwise called Richard Ryvelle, otherwise Richard son of Joan daughter of William Ryvell 1408’.( 36 )
‘Commission of oyer and terminer’ dated 1347 refers to ‘William Ryvel of Bukkeby’ and ‘John ' William baillyf Ryvel' of Bukkeby’.( 37 ) This indicates, presumably, that John served as his father’s bailiff.
HENRY REVELL AND CONNECTIONS TO DEVON AND SOMERSET
I have not greatly investigated the West Country Revells but was of the opinion that Henry (ca 1153 to 1203) was probably brother to Richard of Somerset (ca 1146 to 1213), and that their father was William of Somerset (ca 1126 to 1200) who might be identical to William of Bengeo.
William of Bengeo’s father would be Andrew of Bengeo (extant 1140s), his father would be Roger of Bengeo (extant 1119) (and possibly of Birley Edge, Yorkshire extant 1161), taking us back to William of Llanfilo ca 1090 to 1121.
JOAN AND WILLIAM ATTILBURGH
William of Bukkeby and Ellen also had a daughter Joan who married Geoffrey de Edmundscote, and they had a son Richard.1402 a reference by‘Joan late the wife of Geoffrey Reynald, widow’ to ‘the site of her manor in Buckeby, formerly William Ryvell's’ establishes her identity.Geoffrey Reynald is Geoffrey de Edmenscote and Joan is the daughter of William Ryvell.There is reference also to a John Reynald who might be either Joan’s son or brother.(38 ) The property referred to here corresponds almost exactly to that referred to in a 1378 indenture of demise by William Revell of Bukkeby (Buckby), Warwickshire.( 39) Joan’s son Richard and her second marriage are defined in a document dated 1408 as follows, ‘Confirmation by Richard son and heir of Joan, daughter of William Ryvell’.(40 )Joan de Edmunscote née Revell married secondly William Attilburgh of Coventry who was Coroner in 1395 / 6 and Mayor in 1406 and 1407,(41 ) and her son Richard is described as step-son of William Attilburgh in 1420.(42 )William Attilburgh was granted land on ‘Erlstreit’ in 1421. In 1424 a William Attilburgh and a Johanna Attilburgh were taxed 6s-8d and 3s-4d, respectively, on land in ‘Erll Strete’,(43 ) and thus the widowed Joan Ryvel who married William Belgrave cannot be the daughter of William of Bukkeby.In 1411 her son Richard is named as her heir, and in 1428 Richard inherited property that once belonged to William Attilburgh.
ROBERT SHERIFF OF LONDON
I agree with your synopsis and have some further descendants.
1. BHOL http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62528http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62528
2. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62528
3. http://www.archive.org/stream/calendarclosero03changoog#page/n406/mode/1uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/calendarclosero03changoog#page/n406/mode/1up
4. ‘Thurstaston in Cheshire’ By F. C. Beazley - 1924
5. Visitation of Cheshire
6. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56956&strquery=ryvelhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56956&strquery=ryvel
7. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57139http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57139
8. Feet of Fines, Sussex http://www.archive.org/stream/abstractoffeetof02greauoft#page/38/mode/2up/search/waphttp://www.archive.org/stream/abstractoffeetof02greauoft#page/38/mode/2up/search/wap
9. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56956&strquery=ryvelhttp://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56956&strquery=ryvel
10. Discovery walks in WarwickshireBy Dennis Kelsall http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GHlH83qD63IC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=thomas+%22de+Wappenbury%22&source=bl&ots=jcble9LG-J&sig=E618N_Mz1IUxtAISHYFzBql-BGc&hl=en&ei=_UnsSeSRMYvNjAfy2ZmbCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GHlH83qD63IC&pg=PA34&lpg=PA34&dq=thomas+%22de+Wappenbury%22&source=bl&ots=jcble9LG-J&sig=E618N_Mz1IUxtAISHYFzBql-BGc&hl=en&ei=_UnsSeSRMYvNjAfy2ZmbCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5
11. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57122http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57122
12. BA/H/8/466/1 http://www.coventrycollections.org/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=1&dsqSearch=%28%28text%29=%27revel%27%29http://www.coventrycollections.org/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=1&dsqSearch=%28%28text%29=%27revel%27%29
13. BA/H/8/466/2http://www.coventrycollections.org/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=3&dsqSearch=%28%28text%29=%27revel%27%29
14. ‘Surrey Bells and London Bellfounders’ by J.C.L. Stahlschmidt published Elliot Stock, London 1884 http://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/74/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/74/mode/2up
15. ‘Surrey Bells and London Bellfounders’ by J.C.L. Stahlschmidt published Elliot Stock, London 1884 http://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/8/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/8/mode/2up
16. ‘The Church bells of Kent’ http://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofken00stah#page/10/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofken00stah#page/10/mode/2up
17. ‘The Church Bells of Suffolk’ http://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofsuf00raveuoft#page/n29/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofsuf00raveuoft#page/n29/mode/2up
18. ‘The Church Bells of England’ http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924017579099#page/n211/mode/2up/search/revelhttp://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924017579099#page/n211/mode/2up/search/revel
19. ‘Church Bells of Wiltshire’ http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ALcNAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22church+bells%22+-rival&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&client=firefox-a&cd=13#v=onepage&q=revel&f=falsehttp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ALcNAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22church+bells%22+-rival&lr=&as_drrb_is=q&as_minm_is=0&as_miny_is=&as_maxm_is=0&as_maxy_is=&as_brr=0&client=firefox-a&cd=13#v=onepage&q=revel&f=false
20. ‘The Church Bells of Norfolk’ http://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsnorf00lesgoog#page/n70/mode/1up/search/revelhttp://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsnorf00lesgoog#page/n70/mode/1up/search/revel
21. ‘The Church Bells of England’http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924017579099#page/n341/mode/2up/search/revelhttp://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924017579099#page/n341/mode/2up/search/revel
22. ‘English Bellfounders’ http://www.archive.org/stream/archaeologicaljo50brit#page/168/mode/2up/search/schephttp://www.archive.org/stream/archaeologicaljo50brit#page/168/mode/2up/search/schep
23. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56743http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56743
24. ‘Surrey Bells and London Bellfounders’ by J.C.L. Stahlschmidt published Elliot Stock, London 1884 http://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/22/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/22/mode/2up
25. Surrey Bells and London Bellfounders’ by J.C.L. Stahlschmidt published Elliot Stock, London 1884http://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/n245/mode/2up/search/revelhttp://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/n245/mode/2up/search/revel
26. Surrey Bells and London Bellfounders’ by J.C.L. Stahlschmidt published Elliot Stock, London 1884http://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/n247/mode/2up/search/revelhttp://www.archive.org/stream/surreybellslondo00stahuoft#page/n247/mode/2up/search/revel
27. http://www.archive.org/stream/archaeologicaljo50brit#page/168/mode/2up/search/schephttp://www.archive.org/stream/archaeologicaljo50brit#page/168/mode/2up/search/schep
28. ‘The Church Bells of Buckinghamshire’ http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924011346453#page/n51/mode/2up/search/revelhttp://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924011346453#page/n51/mode/2up/search/revel
29. 883. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64086http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64086
30. ‘Church Bells’ http://www.archive.org/stream/churchbells00walt#page/24/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/churchbells00walt#page/24/mode/2up
31. ‘The Church bells of Kent’ http://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofken00stah#page/10/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofken00stah#page/10/mode/2up
32. ‘The Church bells of Kent’ http://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofken00stah#page/50/mode/2uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/churchbellsofken00stah#page/50/mode/2up
33. Historical Narrative of the Ely, Revell and Stacye Families’ http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mediatype%3Atexts%20AND%20collection%3Ablc%20AND%20subject%3A%22Stacy%20Family%22http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=mediatype%3Atexts%20AND%20collection%3Ablc%20AND%20subject%3A%22Stacy%20Family%22
34. A. 8290.http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64397http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64397
35. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57119http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=57119
36. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fPoujUPs3hYC&pg=RA1-PA68&lpg=RA1-PA68&dq=%22william+brun%22&source=web&ots=RVl_QDV36m&sig=dbk2-Z30lUDwzspBRtEK4oQaeGo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA1232,M1http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fPoujUPs3hYC&pg=RA1-PA68&lpg=RA1-PA68&dq=%22william+brun%22&source=web&ots=RVl_QDV36m&sig=dbk2-Z30lUDwzspBRtEK4oQaeGo&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result#PPA1232,M1
37. Edward III, vol. 7, p. 468
38. A. 8290.http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64397http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64397
39. A. 9851. https://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64413
40. A. 9411 http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64409http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64409
41. A. 6614. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64381http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64381
42. ‘Coventry - Records of Early English Drama’
43. "The Ancestor; a quarterly review of county and family history, heraldry and antiquities" http://www.archive.org/stream/ancestorquarterl06londuoft/ancestorquarterl06londuoft_djvu.txthttp://www.archive.org/stream/ancestorquarterl06londuoft/ancestorquarterl06londuoft_djvu.txt
44. ‘The Coventry Leet Book’ http://www.archive.org/stream/coventryleetboo00unkngoog#page/n57/mode/1uphttp://www.archive.org/stream/coventryleetboo00unkngoog#page/n57/mode/1up
More Replies:
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/25/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/26/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/26/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/27/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/27/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/28/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/28/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/28/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/29/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/29/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/29/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/29/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/25/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/26/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/26/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
Mike Clifford 3/27/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/27/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
James R. Revell 3/28/10
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL
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Re: REVELLS OF NEWBOLD REVELL