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DNA projects: Little/Lytle family related to a Scottish Borders "super-clan"
Posted by: Michael Walsh (ID *****3629) Date: May 05, 2010 at 05:55:11
  of 6132

Hello, I’m a volunteer project coordinator for a Y DNA project called the R-L21* 11-13 Combo project. I apologize for all of the genetic terminology but there is meaning behind the different acronyms and abbreviations. Don’t hesitate to ask questions although most of the explanations and background can be found by searching the web.

As a part of the project, we have discovered that a large core of Little/Lytle surnamed people have a paternal genetic signature that indicates a common ancestor back to the Scottish Borders region during the times of the Reivers or shortly before. There is a newly discovered mutation that marks this “super-clan” that is called L193. Ironically, or perhaps I should say appropriately, the “L” in the name of this mutation comes in honor of Leo W. Little, a genetic genealogist, now deceased.

Discussions on this are being conducted at this web site. “11-13” is just the signature of the larger group that these Little’s (and the other “cousins” – the Elliott’s, Glendinning’s, etc.) fit into. There are charts and maps under the FILES section at this web site.

The full DNA project is hosted here. If you are an FTDNA kit #, you can join the project.

There is no cost to join either web site. I’ve included the article below that is kicking off the discussion about this group of people that I labeled R-L21* 11-13 Combo Group A-1. A large Little/Lytle family is a subset of Group A-1.

Mike Walsh

>>> R-L21* 11-13 Group A-1 (L193?) Origins and Super-family Tree Structure <<<

--- In Rootsweb "Adam Bradford" <> wrote:

The unique surname count doesn't do justice to the most striking aspect of the (R-L21* 11-13 Combo) A-1 clade, which is the preponderance within it of men from just 5 surnames: Elliott, Glendenning, Little, McClain, and Vance (and variants of these). Also striking is the preponderance and/or prominence of the A-1 men within the total tested population of those surnames. In the case of Elliott, they are the largest single group of tested Elliotts and also those who have the best claim to descent from the mainstream Elliotts of Liddesdale. The A1 men in the Glendenning DNA project are the vast majority, by my last count 70% of the whole. The McClain men are diverse, which isn't surprising considering it's a highland surname; but the A1 McClains do constitute the largest single group of closely related men in that project, by my last reckoning. In the Vance project, the A1 men are not only the largest grouping but the one that contains the present-day heir of the Scottish noble line, with a very helpful pedigree back to the 14th century. The A-1 Littles are similarly a very large portion of all Littles tested. With the
exception of McClain, these surnames have traditions of descent back to the Scottish border region during the period from 1100-1400, a timeframe that happens to accord well with various MRCA estimates.

--- In, "mikewww7" <mwwdna@...> wrote:

We intend to look more exhaustively at all of the major sub-groups of R-L21* 11-13 Combo people. I welcome any one to open a topic about any of them. I'm anxious to open a topic on Group B-2 since that is what I'm in.

I'm starting this thread now on A-1 for several reasons. First, A-1 is a clearly related super-family group. Second, we have a large number of different surnames and people in the project related to it. Third, there is a newly discovered SNP, L193, that appears to mark a large portion of it. Some day this might well be formally labeled as R-L193. It is still a sub-clade of R-L21 and of 11-13 Combo, but it should get a formal label by FTDNA. Fourth and perhaps most important, Ann Stansbarger has been researching this group passionately so we (she) has some information to share. She does read this forum but is unable to post so she sends me emails that I'll post on her behalf. She has sent me a lot on A-1 but I'm trying to grasp it and she is still working on it. It is too much to put in one article so we'll "unfold" as she is ready.

To start things off I'll give you the Y DNA background on A-1. Of course, it is 11-13 so the slow/medium off-modal markers 617>=13 and 406s1>=11 are present. Also the marker that I think sets apart all of Group A, 640=12, is present in A-1. 640 is quite slow moving, so it is nice STR marker to flag a group of related people. 27 people in A-1 have deep clade tested with the result being they are L21+ which confirms 11-13 is a part of R-L21*.

What seems to set A-1 from the rest of A are two things. First these two faster moving markers: 607>=16 and 534<=14. 80% of A-1 has 607>=16. 90.5% of A-1 has 534<=14. These two markers are fast moving so it is possible to flip-flop on these and look like you are not in A-1 when you actually do have the same common ancestor with A-1. The second thing that sets A-1 apart is the SNP L193. Everyone so far in A-1 that has tested for L193 is L193+. Of course, everyone in A-1 and A that has deep clade R tested is L21+. Think of L193+ as a grandson of L21+ and as a great grandson of P312+ (aka S116+). We don't know if L193 marks A-1 completely and we don't know if there are A* people who might be L193 also. Everyone in A-1 and possibly A* should probably test for L193. Of the 13 in A-1 who have tested for L193, all 13 are L193+.

Here are the major sub-groups of A-1 and their signature markers:

1113-A-1-CM: A-1 off-modals with 572=12 389ii-i=16 - Clendennen/Glendinning, Meek(s), Proffitt

1113-A-1-MD: A-1 with 572=12 389ii-i=17 - MacLean/McLean/McClain/McLane, Dugger, Kennedy, Stevens, Robertson

1113-A-1-SN: A-1 with 572=12 456=17 usually 464b=15,16,17,17 - St.Clair/Sinclair/Sinkler, Newton

1113-A-1-EH: A-1 with 459b=9 and usually 572=12 - Elliott, Hall, Irving, Matheson

1113-A-1-L: A-1 with 568=8 385=11,11 usually 464=14,15,17,17 - Little/Lytle

1113-A-1-VF: A-1 with 458>=18 and oftentimes 19 - Vance/Vans/Vaus 1, Ferguson, Lackey

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