Re: Mathys C. Houghtalings Parents???
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In reply to:
Re: Mathys C. Houghtalings Parents???
Patricia Nitz 5/14/09
Pat,
I'd heard some dispute on that from Greene County sources.But my take lies with others that the orphan Mathias Coenradtsen is on the list. And that the patronomic is so rare as to bealmost certainly the same.
The core it is based on age. One of two court records in the 1668 era in Coxsackie uses. Mathias C. Hoogteling the other uses Mathias Coenradtsen. The former uses an age which would preclude him being on the ship.
This is explained away as "ages were notoriously unreliable" by an expert. My guess is the aging translator who's eyesight was said to be failing changed 7's for 2's.
AnyhowI'll let you judge, Olivetree.com under the ship Waegh 1655 has the list info.
the Shepard Website and Stephentown Genealogy site fall discuss the issue with cites and fall into my camp.
I doubt the poor reporting of age thing because in my experience they , the early dutch colonial culture,were acutely aware of age because it had ramifications for adulthood, marriage, contracts and the end of apprenticships. The Vd's, Brandow, Houghtalings and others almost always marry during these early years around the 21 birthday for males and very close to that for females into revolutionary times. The naming patterns persist into my father's era. My furthest back ancestor that we have good info about had a wife Tryntje, (catherine) sons Henry, Robert, Jan (John) and Mathias. My father's name was Henry, his sisters Catryn, His cousin John, It went Rykert, Henry, Richard, Henry, Edwin, Paul Henry, me.
In short I place high stock in established family patterns.
I know that with limited info much falls into conjecture so remember I claim no monopoly on the facts.
Listen I have to get ready for work if you like I can get back to with the cites some you can look them over yourself.
Just remember Mathias and his kin irregardless of previous origin were acutely Dutch in this country accepted as such and following all the cultural nuances and into many generations. People still used Dutch here in the Hudson Valley into the time of Martin Van Buren.
In Russell Shorto book you get a sense of who these folks were and the age. Netherlands was among the most, liberal, cosmitpolitan cultures and open to religious political refugees of the era.
Among the Dutch were the Hugenauts,Irish and english protestant groups like the pligrims, Scots protestants, and Germans seeking work and freedom from the religious fueds in europe. This is what America is all about isn't it?
So my desire is just to find the origins. Also remeber in theearly culture here we are speaking about maybe two orgenerations by the time of the Waegh,. In Europethere could be 10 -15 generations of Hoogtelings in the area of the village with many branches. So while what has been reported seems solid the next village 5 miles away might have been his actual home with another line that had a coenradt. too don't forget political lines shift a lot in Europe with Germsn. Belgium, France and German states ebbing and waxing in size.
If you look you'll see even today there are multiple dialects of flemish, dutch, Frisian persisting in areas probabley no bigger than a few counties in the US. In other words 100 miles from Amsterdam could well havebeen a foreign state.
It's like they say about the Norman lords sent to rule Ireland they became more Irish than the irsh themselves.
Pat I'd like to hear more about your source. I hope maybe he could check out if any records are available in Amsterdam or the orphan masters. If there were maybe we'd get some cross checking which would further the facts. i.e parents name, place of origin, any siblings in care, mother name. cause of commitment. The dutch sometimes took children of the destitute in when the family lacked the means to provide due to circumstances.
a couple of key facts could really clarify a lot.
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Re: Mathys C. Houghtalings Parents???
Patricia Nitz 5/15/09