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Re: AMOS HOFF (1775-1855 Dallas Co. IA) vs. JOHN F. HOFF
Posted by: JOHN SCOTT HOFF (ID *****4640) Date: September 17, 2010 at 13:28:23
In Reply to: Re: AMOS HOFF (1775-1855 Dallas Co. IA) by JOHN SCOTT HOFF of 886

The following exchange too place today between WILLIAM "BILL" HOFF (of Omaha) and JOHN SCOTT HOFF (of Chicago) concerning AMOS HOFF:


Bill Hoff - Sep 16, 2010 View | Viewers
Categories: Dallas Co. Hoffs
       SEPTEMBER 16, 2010

EVERYTHING I HAVE SEEN CLAIMING JONATHAN (1775-1812) AND ELIZABETH (DUNCAN)(1785-??) HOFF WERE THE PARENTS OF POWELL HOFF (8/13/1801- 5/6/1870) IS EITHER THE
INCORRECT GUESSWORK POSTED BY THE LATE ARNOLD HOVEY OR COPIES OF HOVEY’S POSTINGS. THIS INCLUDES THE MULTITUDE OF WRONG POSTINGS BY JOHN SCOTT HOFF.

HOVEY AT ONE TIME STATED ENOCH WAS POWELL’S FATHER. LATER HOVEY STATED, “I HAVE NO DOCUMENTS TO SHOW POWELL AND JOHN WERE CHILDREN OF JONATHAN HOFF AND ELIZABETH DUNCAN“. IT APPEARS THAT HOVEY, AT A LATER DATE, THROUGH A FLIP OF A COIN, WHIM OR HUNCH NAMED JONATHAN THE FATHER OF POWELL, WITHOUT ANY PROOF.

NO ONE HAS SHOWN ANY PROOF TO SUPPORT THIS FALSE THEORY.

(JSH NOTE: NOT SO - SEE the input of LARRY HUFF, with proof from contemporary Personal Proterty tax data in VA {not available on-line} revealing that each individual both had sons in the proper year brackets to have been sons POWELL HOFF & his brother JOHN HARVEY HOFF {JSH})

AMOS WAS THE FIRST GRAVE (PER THE GRIMES, IOWA CENTENNIAL) IN THE HOFF
PRAIRIE CEMETERY. AMOS IS BURIED NEXT TO POWELL (POWELL’S WIFE, MARTHA (BREWSTER) HOFF, IS BURIED ON THE OTHER SIDE OF POWELL). THE MARKERS FOR AMOS AND POWELL HAVE AN ENGRAVED HAND WITH THE INDEX FINGER POINTING SKYWARD.

(JSH NOTE: True, but "so what?" It proves that there was a close, family nexus between POWELL and the elderly AMOS, but it fails to define what that was {JSH}).

POWELL GOT HIS NAME FROM HIS MOTHER’S MAIDEN NAME.

(JSH NOTE: There is no PROOF thus far of that "maiden name" of the wife of AMOS HOFF, and ther are a half dozen "other" POWELL HOFFs up-stream in the family tree, including the father of AMOS HOFF {JSH}).

POWELL NAMED ONE OF HIS DAUGHTERS PRUDENCE (NONE WERE NAMED ELIZABETH OR BETSY).

(JSH NOTE: If AMOS's wife had the first name of "Prudence", there is no question that there was a close relationship between POWELL and the elderly AMOS HOFF couple; but again this curcumstantial evidence is not "proof" of what that relatinoship was)

POWELL NAMED ONE OF HIS SONS AMOS (NONE WERE NAMED JONATHAN).

(JSH NOTE: Well...JONATHAN also went by the name of "JOHN F. HOFF" (per his Probabted Estate in 1812); and actually, POWELL named a son "JOHN HOFF" - who is my 1XG Grandfather (1830-1909), a fact that escaped BILL HOFF {JSH})

POWELL (8/13/1801-5/25/1824) AND MARTHA (BREWSTER) (7/28/1802-1/271892) HOFF HAD 12 CHILDREN.OF THESE 12, I HAVE CORRESPONDED WITH OR SPOKEN WITH DECENDANTS OF 7 THAT AGREE THAT AMOS ( 4/16/1775-5/6/1855) AND PRUDENCE (??-??) (POWELL) HOFF WERE THE PARENTS OF POWELL.

(JSH NOTE: "Putting it to a vote" isn't much of a substitute for good, methological genealogical research. I have thus far abstained from voting {JSH})

1. NANCY (3/23/1825-4/27/1850) :
UNAWARE OF ANY DESCENDANTS.

(JSH NOTE: she died three years after marrige to JOHN BLANCHARD of Princeville, IL and childless. I have located and photographed her headstone inthe Princeville Cem.){JSH})

2. WILLIAM H. (10/13/1826-2/7/1904) :
KEVIN HOFF (GG GRANDSON OF WILLIAM), OF CHICAGO, ILLINOIS, PUBLISHED IN APRIL1994 A 21 PAGE ARTICLE NAMING AMOS AS POWELL’S FATHER. THIS IS ON FILE AT THE DALLAS CENTER, IOWA LIBRARY.
WILLIAM WESLEY GREER OF WILLIAMS, CALIFORNIA (GG GRANDSON OF WILLIAM) HAS A HAND WRITTEN RECORD BY HIS GRANDMOTHER, LENA O”NORA (WRIGHT) HOLLIS (10/30/1883-7/26/1960) THAT SHOWS AMOS AS THE FATHER OF POWELL.

3. PRUDENCE (5/13/1828-7/9/1847) : DIED AT AGE NINETEEN..

4. JOHN H. (4/1/1830-3/31/1909)
EVEN THOUGH JOHN SCOTT HOFF (JOHN H.’S GREAT GRANDSON) HAS MAINTAINED HIS UNPROVEN POSITION, OTHER MEMBERS OF THIS BRANCH HAVE TOLD ME THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH HIM AND AGREE THAT AMOS WAS THE FATHER OF POWELL.

(JSH NOTE: See my comments below... Exactly WHO is it that has "voted", and upon what did they base it? {JSH})

5.MARIA (4/10/1832-6/20/1888) :
NEAL KELLY (GREAT GRANDSON OF MARIA) HAS DISTRIBUTED A LETTER DATED APRIL 23, 1964 FROM ORA (LAMAR) HAMELL SHOWING AMOS WAS POWELL’S FATHER.

(JSH NOTE: Well, let's see... 1964 was only 110 years AFTER the death of AMOS HOFF and ~100 years AFTER the death of POWELL in 1870. So, I would NOT consider this to be a dispositive, contemporary document that pre-dated their respecttive deaths, but it does have a certain emotional appeal {JSH})

6. AMOS (2/14/1834-5/2/1906)
KENNETH AND JANICE(HOFF) HARDISON OF COLORADO SPRINGS, COLORADO HAVE A FAMILY TREE SHOWING POWELL’S FATHER AS AMOS. JANICE IS THE GREAT GRAND DAUGHTER OF AMOS (1834-1906)

7. SARAH ANN (1/25/1836-3/15/1883)
UNABLE TO CONTACT DESCENDANTS

8. NATHAN TIMOTHY (2/23/1838-9/22/1913)
UNABLE TO CONTACT DESCENDANTS

9. POWELL DUDLEY (2/12/1840-9/14/1918)
CAPT. PAUL HARRY HOFF (2-17-1919-1/10-1974),(GRANDSON OF POWELL DUDLEY) DEVELOPED A HAND WRITTEN FAMILY TREE BY VISITING FAMILY MEMBERS (WITHOUT A COMPUTER) THAT SHOWS AMOS AS THE FATHER OF POWELL. MY UNCLE PAUL WAS A BOMBER PILOT DURING WORLD WAR TWO
.PHYLLIS JEAN NORDYKE (GREAT GRANDDAUGHTER OF POWELL DUDLEY) HAS A WEB SITE WITH A LARGE AMOUNT OF HOFF FAMILY HISTORY AND A FAMILY TREE SHOWING AMOS AS THE FATHER OF POWELL.
I, (BILL HOFF), AM THE GREAT GRANDSON OF POWELL DUDLEY AND ALL OF MY FAMILY CONTACTS AND RESEARCH SUPPORT AMOS AND PRUDENCE WERE THE PARENTS OF POWELL.

(JSH NOTE: Bill maybe right, but we'd all just LOVE to see the underlying documents upon which he basis his belief - so far - NOTHING. {JSH})

10. MARTHA (2/17/1842-10/30/1875
MICHELLE RANEE (JOHNSON) FOX , PRESIDENT OF THE DALLAS COUNTY GENEALOGICAL SOCIETY, OF MINBURN, IOWA, AGREES THAT AMOS WAS POWELL’S FATHER. MICHELLE POINTS OUT THAT POWELL WAS BORN ALMOST A YEAR BEFORE JONATHAN AND ELIZABETH WERE MARRIED AND THIS DID NOT HAPPEN IN THIS TIME PERIOD. MICHELLE’S HUSBAND, JEFFREY ROBERT FOX, IS THE GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDSON OF MARTHA (HOFF) WOOD (1842-1875).

(JSH NOTE: See above: Based upon WHAT??? {JSH})

11. NATHANIEL BREWSTER (6/25/1844-8/17/1920)
RALPH H. HOFF (3/21/1883-4/14/1969) ON JANUARY 27, 1948 PASSED ON HIS HAND WRITTEN FAMILY RECORD WHICH HE COPIED FROM THE FAMILY BIBLE THAT SHOWS AMOS AS FATHER OF POWELL.

12. CHARLES P. (5/2/1846-5/26/1915)
UNAWARE OF ANY DESCENDANTS

I HAVE DOCUMENTS TO BACK UP MY STATEMENTS. ANYONE WITH A LICK OF COMMON SENSE WILL ACCEPT THE PROOF OFFERED BY DESCENDANTS OF POWELL OVER THE SPECULATION OF A DISTANT RELATIVE (FOURTH COUSIN ONCE REMOVED).

(JSH NOTE: See response below. Apparently lacking a "lick of common sense", I'd like a hard document to see, and would LOVE to actually see a copy of the entries you quote, but have choosen to NOT share. {KSJ})

JOHN SCOTT HOFF HAS DEFENDED HIS ERRONEOUS POSITION WITH A LARGE VOLUME OF WRITINGS FEATURING COLORFUL ADJECTIVES AND NAME CALLING. THESE LAWYER TACTICS DO NOT IMPRESS THIS OLD FARM BOY.

WILLIAM H. (BILL) HOFF
OMAHA, NEBRASKA
WHHOFF@AOL.COM

***********************************************************

JOHN SCOTT HOFF RESPONSE:

WILLIAM H. (BILL) HOFF of Omaha MAY ultimately be proven to be correct in his above assertions and advocacy. I have an "open" mind at this point, and certainly hope he is ultimately proven correct. I don't have "a dog in the fight", and honestly don't care WHO is ultimately proven correct, but I hope that somebody can be. Numerous people are now trying to get DOCUMENTED "paper-proof" to either support (or refute) his theory, and the circumstantial evidence he summons, upon which his conclusion is based. Just to set (or keep) the "record' is CLEAR on this matter: I have NEVER claimed that BILL HOFF (or anyone else) was yet "wrong". But, without firm documentation to resolve the matter, neither have I "rolled over" and "admitted" that he (or anyone else, for that matter) is RIGHT, either. I am trying very hard to remain DEAD-NEUTRAL, but will only be finally persuaded by contemporary provable facts through undisputable documentation. I am merely reserving judgment until "hard" (lawyer-like) dispositive "paper-proven" independent "evidence" (and not well-reasoned nor however well-intentioned) "farm-boy" (as he describes himself) conjecture and even well-reasoned speculation is developed that will firmly and finally settle the issue - one way or the other. Until it is found and proven, I consider it to be very much of an "open issue".
So, until or unless the above takes place, one-and-all should take EITHER position (that of JONATHAN/JOHN F. HOFF or that of AMOS HOFF) as being POWELL HOFF's father with a healthy dose of skepticism and caution until and unless the matter can be "paper-proven". Until then, "name-calling" or a refusal to "admit" to one side or the other is correct really isn't too useful and proves nothing.
The information that I much earlier posted as part of my own FTM data ("HOFF FAMILY I, {and later} II") that touched-off BILL HOFF was admittedly largely taken from the otherwise credible data from the now-late Arnold Hovey. However, I have no ORIGINAL,CONTEMPORARY DOCUMENTATION as to the veracity of the late Mr. Hovey's assertions (nor that of BILL HOFF's, either) . So, until our cousin BILL "weighed in" with his own contrary theories in support of AMOS HOFF being the true father of POWELL HOFF, I had no reason to question nor refute the equally-compelling well-researched factual assertions of the late Mr. Hovey. And, since his unfortunate death, Mr. Hovey isn't around to defend himself and his body of genealogical research on our family from attack, I am trying very hard to get to the truth of what is actually involved. I honestly don't care who is correct. I'd love it if BILL HOFF's thoughts are ultimately verified and proven correct. And, to that end, I have been incrementally reporting the progress of the team of highly-experienced and well-qualified genealogical "sleuths" who are now researching and conducting an in-depth objective investigation of both Bill Hoff's (and Arnold Hovey's) assertions using old, contemporary Ohio & VA records, including property tax, personal tax (not available on-line), census and other LDC SLC microfiche documentation that may ultimately prove which individual is right (and conversely, which guy was wrong).
Larry Huff, from the KY "Huff side" of our DNA-proven family, and who is a research genius, is leading the effort. He has developed some amazing data thus far, including irrefutable paper-PROOF that AMOS HOFF (1775-1855) was the son of a POWELL HOFF (#2) and PRUDENCE SUTTON of York Co., SC (and NOT the Rev. DANIEL HOFF, who thus far was thought to have been his sire). So that all can see and hopefully benefit from all this, I have been posting the data that has been unearthed on <www.Genealogy.com> Message Boards for the Hoff Family, and here.
Bill Hoff claims to have "documents to back up (his) statements". However, when he was asked to provide a copy of them for examination or scrutiny, he demurred and declined to share them, claiming that they were "confidential" and secret. So, so much for the "proof" - and subjecting any of it to any objective bright light of day. I’d just LOVE to see it. We were expected to merely "take his word" for it. As an experienced lawyer can tell you, "circumstantial evidence", educated guesses and speculation is a poor and inherently unreliable substitute for hard, cold, direct evidentiary "proof".
Thus, until or unless the matter can be positively and irrefutably "paper-proven", then readers should take any 12 step program (like the above) offered by ANYBODY (me included) with an appropriate dose of skepticism before building into their "family tree" and reposting on the WEB as gospel.
I will try to keep everyone interested updated with periodic posting on what is developed in the investigation of this interesting family controversy and mystery - which to me is yet to be solved. When (or if) BILL HOFF is irrefutably proven correct, I will be the first one to offer him my congratulations and confirmation. Until then, nothing is being offered by me to "impress" (contrary to Bill Hoff's accusation) , and it remains yet to be determined who is "erroneous". The truth will come out (hopefully) in the documentation, and that is what I seek. Being objectively correct is far more important to me that merely trying to win an emotional argument. Cheers, JOHN SCOTT HOFF, Chicago, IL

John S. Hoff
Attorney at Law
HOFF & HERRAN
135 S. LaSalle Street, Suite 3300
Chicago, Illinois 60603-4134
312/346-8111
312/853-3924 Fax
jsh@aviationattorney.com
www.aviationattorney.com


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