Re: Hertel de Chambly
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In reply to:
Re: Hertel de Chambly
8/22/01
Guess I forgot about our previous correspondence - Yes I would like that address, I can always use the web-translator if I can`t follow the French. Part of what I have is from a web-site of Tim and Julia Rice that I came across some time ago. They were trying to establish a connection to Jacques through "the Mohawk Princess" and had quite a bit of documentation. They had me convinced until I found the debunking article. Here is some of the Rices findings - quite interesting to me:
All of the following taken from - Internet Homepage - Julia and Tim Rice
Jacques HERTEL, born Abt. 1603 in Fecamp, Normandy, France; died 1651 in Trois-Rivieres, PQ, Canada. He was the son of 19604. Nicholas HERTEL and 19605. Jeanne MIRIOT.
Notes for Jacques HERTEL:
Came to New France with Samuel de Champlain in 1613. It was a common
practice for Champlain to put young boys into the native tribes for a year
or two to learn the language and customs so they could be his interpreters
as young men, and that is what happened to Jacques. He was an interpreter
until 1629 when New France fell to the Kirk brothers. Then he and the
other interpreters fled to their tribes of their youth, where they lived
till 1633 when Champlain was back and New France returned to the French.
In 1633 Jacques was granted land at Trois-Rivieres, PQ, Canada and was the
first settler there. He married a French girl in 1641 and had 3 children
before his death in 1651.
Fecamp is a town on the coast of France on the English Channel, just
north-east of Le Havre, in Normandy. It is about half-way between LeHavre
and Dieppe, being slightly closer to LeHavre. About 25 km. or less from
LeHavre. Jacques HERTEL was born circa 1603 in Fecamp, Normandy.
The "Monumenta Novae Franciae," Vol II, (Etablisement a Quebec,
1616-1634), by Lucien Campeau, S.I. (Quebec: Laval U Press, 1979) gives
Jacques HERTEL's mother as Jeanne MIRIOT.
Campeau, in MNF says that Jacques came to Quebec in 1626 (much too late
according to other records, including Champlain's census'). The account
goes on to say that Jacques died 10 Aug 1651 and that he died suddenly, perhaps accidentally.
Jacques HERTEL 1603 Fr. - 1651 Trois-Rivieres, PQ, was one of several
interpretors working for Samuel de Champlain in the newly formed New
France. Champlain's method of training his interpreters was to choose
young boys or men who he would send to live with the Indians for a year or
two, often accepting an Indian boy in exchange who was to learn French
language and customs. Most of the interpreters have their whereabouts
recorded; so far, I have not found a source showing what tribe HERTEL was
sent to.
From _Jacques HERTEL (de La FRESNAYE)_by Madeline H. Carey, Scot
Vandelinder, Arlene Coppernoll Cuba [all desc. of Cornelise VAN SLYKE and
Ots-Toch], no date
"The object of CHAMPLAIN in enlisting BRULE, NICOLET,MARSOLET, HERTEL,
MARGUERIE and other grown-up boys for service in Canada from 1608 to 1620
was to educate them as interpreters. They could all read and write; some
of them were perfect scholars" _Annals of the Ottawa_ in Ottawa Evening
Journal 12 Jan. 1889,
copied from _The History of Brule's Discoveries and Explorations_
The Jesuit Relations V.IX states that Jacques HERTEL, a native of
Normandy, came to Canada in 1615 [Champlain's account says 1613] and was
employed by C. as an interpreter. Champlain speaks of the arrival of three
interpreters,
Nicolas du VIGEAU, Jacques HERTEL and Thomas GODEFROY, in 1613. In J-R,
HERTEL and others were identified as being from Normandy. Jacques HERTEL
also appears on the Census' of 1624, 1629 and 1635. In the last two, his
date of arrival is given as 1615.
_Histoire de la Nouvelle-France_ V.II Le comptoir 1604-1627: There is
mention of several of the interpreters and the tribes they were sent to
live with. Etienne BRULE was a Huron interpreter; Jean NICOLLET, Jean
MANET and Jean RICHER were Nipissing interpreters; Nicolas de VIGNAU and
Thomas GODEFROY were Algonquin interpreters; Nicolas MARSOLET and Olivier LETARDIF were interpreters for the Montagnais. A footnote adds that Dionne in _Samuel Champlain_ V.II adds to the list of interpreters the names of
Jacques HERTEL, LeBAILIF, Du VERNET, Jean-Paul GODEFROY and LAMONTAGNE.
The footnote goes on to add that these named individuals were not
qualified interpreters in the time period of interest and that just living
with the Indian tribes was not enough to be given the title interpreter.
(not sure what interpetation to make of this yet)
For the purpose of our intent to prove that Jacques HERTEL was the father(SEE ARTICLE RE THIS MYTH UNDER NOTES FOR HIS FATHER DEBUNKING)
of Ots-Toch, born from a liason with a Mohawk woman in New York, we mustfind evidence that Jacques had opportunity to interact with the Iroquoistribes in the critical time period of 1615-1627. It is during this time that Ots-Toch was born, and although the majority of reports put her birth at 1620, we can not be sure this is correct.
It is also necessary to understand the relationships of the Indian tribes
when Champlain made his first expedition against the Iroquois in 1609. In
1535 Jacques Cartier visited the St. Lawrence and found the northern shore
occupied by the Montagnais Indians, almost up to the narrows of Quebec.
From there to the Ottawa the Algonquins, conquerors of the Montagnais,
lived. Beyond the Ottawa and still bordering the St. Lawrence, were the
Hurons, who were allies of the Algonquins in their war with the Iroquois.
The Iroquois nation, to which the Huron belonged although they were now at
war, occupied the territory south of the St. Lawrence and south-east of
Lake Ontario. The St. Lawrence, as the dividing line, was frequently the
scene of battle between marauding parties of Indians. As Iroquois power
grew in the 16th. century, the Hurons retreated to the peninsula between
Georgian Bay and Lake Huron, while the Algonquins retired to the upper
Ottawa through the chain of lakes connecting the Ottawa River with
Georgian Bay. Until the mid 17th. century, this was the only route used
for going to and from Huron country to Quebec. [Biggar: pp 70-71]
[Source given is LESCARBOT:_Hist. de la Nouvelle France_ ed. of 1866] From
_The Early Trading Companies of New France_ by H.P. Biggar:
According to Biggar, the barter at the rapids [Lachine] in the summer of
1617 was unusually large as all the tribes visted by Champlain in the
winter of 1615 and 1616 now came down to the St. Lawrence for the first
time. However the news that Dutch traders on the Hudson had succeeded in
forming an alliance with the Iroquois confederation "showed that little
hope could henceforth be entertained of any trading connections in that
direction" [p.106]
There is a chapter on the Fur Trade and it states that the hunting tribes
were those furthest from the centres of trade at Montreal, Trois-Rivieres,
Quebec and Tadoussac. They trade their furs to other Indians, not the
French. The Indians "in the middle" dealt with both French and other
Indians. The Iroquois dealt with the Dutch settlers at Fort Orange, NY.
In NY, the Dutch had built Fort Nassau in 1614 but their fur-trading
contact with the Iroquois was not really extensive until the founding of
Fort Orange in 1624. So, we are on the very beginning edge of European contact with the Indians. In 1626, the Dutch almost lost their toe-hold on the Hudson
when the commander of Fort Orange sided with the Mahicans against their
Mohawk enemies. The Mahicans were badly defeated and only some fancy
negotiating by the new director of the colony, Peter Minuit, managed to
salvage the situation and forge a friendship with the Mohawks. Even then,
Minuit withdrew all of the settlers to the recently purchased Manhattan
Island for their safety.
We know that it was not long before the French were beginning to expand
their contacts with the NY Indians. It seems that they concentrated their
efforts in the area around Oneida Lake. Their trading did begin to worry the
Dutch.
In the summer of 1624, there were more Indians at the barter in the Upper
St. Lawrence than ever before. Champlain had not been beyond the rapids
since 1615 but "owing to the annual winter visits of the interpreters"
[BIGGAR p.123] and to the extension of French trade, new tribes continued to make their way to Lachine every summer.
"In early July 1624, six delegates from the Five Nations came to propose a
treaty of peace and shortly thereafter, 35 Iroquois canoes came down the
Richelieu River to barter furs with the Frenchmen for the first time"
_History of Canada_ by Lanctot
From _The Early Trading Companies of New France: A Contribution to the
History of Commerce and Discovery in North America_ by H.P. Biggar, 1937,
Augustus M. Kelley, Publishers, Clifton, 1972. FC329.C62B5: "In the summer
of 1624 the concourse of savages at the barter in the upper St. Lawrence
was greater than ever......owing to the gradual extension of the area in
which the French merchandize circulated, fresh tribes continued to make
their way nearby every summer to the place of barter. This summer was made
especially noteworthy by the arrival of thirty-five canoes of Iroquois.
Two years before this, two Iroqouis warriors had come to the Montagnais of
their own accord in order to try and conclude a treaty of peace. But as
they were not official representatives Champlain induced four of the
Montagnais, specially deputed to conclude a peace, to return with these
Iroquois. On their arrival in the Iroquois country they were met with a
good reception and a permanent treaty was drawn up. Thirty-five canoes of
Iroquois had now arrived both to trade and to sign the peace. Although the
nations and tribes were thus very various no difficulty arose, so perfect
were the arrangements made by Champlain. Each nation had its own interpreter. After the ordinary business of the barter, there ws the feast of frinedship with presents given by both sides. Then followed the dances and other festivities. Finally the whole was brought to a close by the conclusion of the long-hoped-for peace between the iroquois, the Hurons and the French." [pp123,124]
From these references, we know that peace between the Iroquois and French
in New France was achieved as early as 1622. This peace was broken in 1627
but for a five-year period, there was opportunity for Jacques HERTEL to
interact easily with the Mohawk tribes.
"During the winter of 1625 Champlain remained in France....we are again
without any record of what took place during the summer in the St. Lawrence valley. ...Champlain, on his return to Quebec in the summer of 1626, found everything in complete disorder.....During this time the
annual barter had been going on as usual further up the river. It was
learned however from the Iroquois present that trouble had broken out
between them and the Dutch and that five of the latter had even been
massacred." [pp 127, 128]
"The savages who dwelt beside the Dutch had sent presents asking the
Montagnais and Algonquins to help them against the Iroqouis, who, when
they had killed the five Dutchmen, had massacred tweny-four of that
tribe."[p.129]
"It was agreed to wait [to make a decision re fighting the Iroquois] until
the vessels had arrived, when the other nations should have come down for
the barter. During the interval, however, some Algonquins went off on the
war-path and a few light-headed young Montagnais braves caught two
Iroquois on Lake Champlain. Although Champlain was able to induce the
savages assembled at the barter to send back these prisoners with presents
and an expression of regret for what had occurred, yet his efforts were
too late.
On reaching the Iroquois country the embassy was at first well received,
but when news was brought of the ravages committed else- where by the
Algonquin warriors who had gone on the war-path, all the members of it
were speedily massacred, without distinction of French or Indian" [p.129]
It is not known where Jacques HERTEL was, and what he did, from the time
of his arrival in New France in 1613 [CHAMPLAIN's] or 1615 [other sources]
until 1629 when the KIRKE brothers seized control of New France. Mention
is made in the Jesuit Relations that Jacques "took refuge with the
savages"
Sagard speaks of the country of the Neutral Indians, which he states lay
"to the south 4 or 5 days journey from the Hurons, beyond the nation of
the Quieunontateronons." [p.158] [Note that the tribe called the
Quieunontatetonons by the Hurons, was the Weskarini, an Algonquin tribe
living on the North side of the Ottawa River below Allumette Island]
and he goes on to add that the land extended over 100 leagues. [A footnote
states that the Neutral Nation was a confederation of Iroquois tribes
living north of Lake Erie and along the Niagara River. p.151] This Neutral
nation was at peace and remained neutral with both Huron and Iroquois,
with the result that "members of either of the two nations were welcome among them and these did not dare to utter or do anything displeasing to one another when there, and often would eat together as if they had been friends. But if
they met outside the [Neutral's] territory, there was no friendship any
more and they would wage cruel war upon one another, and keep it up to the
uttermost"[p.158]
As an interpreter, Jacques would have known of this Indian tribe and it is
possible that he and Ots-Toch's mother met in Neutral territory. Further
mention is made by Sagard:
"One of our Frenchman had fallen ill among the Tobacco tribe, and his
companions, who were going off to the Neutral tribe, left him there in the
care of a savage..."[p.194]
In 1629 the KIRKE brothers seized Quebec, and the French were no longer in
control. Mention is made in several sources of the interpreters returning
to live with the Indians and Jacques is specifically mentioned by Benjamin
SULTE:
"At the return of Champlain, he [Jacques] returned to Quebec with a
thorough knowledge of the languages and customs of the Savages, having
contracted some extremely useful friendships among the far distant tribes
still unknown to the French. Meanwhile, information is sufficiently vague
that we have reached the point of allowing ourselves to suppose that
Jacque [sic] Hertel settled in T-R before the year 1636; we know that he
must have frequently gone on the trading trips which were made each
summer."
Sulte states that Jacques lived with tribes during the years Quebec was
occupied by the KIRKE brothers.[1629-1633]
HERTEL had acquired a taste for "la vie des bois" during his 14 years of
service. [this would imply that Jacques had been in New France since 1615]
HERTEL returned to CHAMPLAIN in 1633. [_Dictionary of Canadian Biography_
and _History of Trois-Rivieres_ by Benj. Sulte]
From _The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents_Travels and Explorations
of the Jesuit Missionaries in North America, 1610-1791 V. IX, p. 305: Jacques HERTEL.."He was long employed by Champlain as an interpreter and, upon the capture of Quebec, took refuge with the savages..."
On Dec.3, 1633, the Hundred Associates Company granted Jacques HERTEL 200
acres of land in Trois-Rivieres, making him the first land-owner there. At
this time HERTEL was granted the seigneury de La Fresnaye [_D. of Cnd.
Biog_ and _Hist. of T-R_by Benj. Sulte]
From _Word From New France: The Selected Letters of Marie de
l'Incarnation_ translated and edited by Joyce Marshall
"as early as 1633 Jacques HERTEL, a soldier who had spent the years of
English occupation among the Indians, and Jean GODEFROY, an interpreter,
had been established at Trois-Rivieres, and in 1635 CHAMPLAIN built a
habitation there to help defend the little settlement. The Jesuits also
established a permanent mission." [p.48]
Is it significant that she refers to J. as a soldier while referring to
Godefroy as an interpreter? Or just that J. had taken up a new profession?
In _The French Canadians 1600-1900 V.2_ ed. by Noel Montgomery Elliot, J.
is referred to as "interpreter living in 1629 in Quebec (ville)" and the
reference for this is _La Ville de Quebec Sous le Regime Francais_ par
Pierre Georges ROY, Vol. Premier, p.109.
J. was granted two other parcels of land by Montmagny in 1636.
In the records for Three Rivers, Jacques HERTEL attended the baptisms of
many children, including numerous Indians (children and adults) as early
as 1636 (the Three Rivers bpt records begin in 1635). A 30 yr old Indian,
Jacques OUIJAPISIT was bpt 23 Apr 1636 and a 6 yr old Indian boy, Jacques
(father named Pietratinat), was bpt 30 Apr 1636. Jacques HERTEL attended
at both. Another boy, Jacques (grandfather named Nipinoucoueau), was bpt
31 Aug 1637.
In 1637, 2 days after Easter, HERTEL; Sa. Ondionshens, a Huron from the
village of Conception, who had wintered here [T-R] was baptised; his
godfather was M. de la FRESNAYE, who named him Charles. [Vo. 9 Jesuit
Relations]
We next hear of J. in the spring or summer of 1637 when mention is made in
the J-R of Jacques being on the River des Prairies with NICOLET and St.
JEAN. Story follows, as told by Saint Jean: They perceived a canoe
prowling around the Islands on the lookout for some Hiroquois [sic]; they
immediated fired several shots from the arquebuses to summon it to them.
The Savage who was in it, seeing the bark, brought his canoe alongside.
After he had been questioned about various things, he was asked if he
would not like to go down to the three Rivers, as Monsieur de St. Jean and
sieur HERTEL desired to go there. He replied that he greatly wished to go
there, but that the Hiroquois [sic] would be sure to kill him on the way.
Sieur NICOLET rejoined that he ought to fear nothing when these two young
men, both of them courageous, and children of brave Captains, were with
him.
The outcome was that the Indian went with them, they saw nothing but
forest and water, and all were fine.
Jacques HERTEL, already a Lieutenant in the troops was elected syndic
[mayor] of Trois-Rivieres [_Dict of Cdn. Biog_ and _Hist. of T-R_ by
Sulte]
In 1641 J md. Marie MARGUERIE, age 15, the sister of his friend and fellow
interpreter, Francois MARGUERIE.
Here is the marriage contract for Jacques HERTEL, from the notarial
records (Vol 6, 1980), signed on 23 Aug 1641. Jacques HERTEL, res:
Trois-Rivieres. Origin: France, Normandy, Rural Marie MARGUERIE, res:
Trois Rivieres. Origin: France, Normandy, Urban Nicolas HERTEL, res:
France, Normandy, Rural. Father of groom, married, deceased. Jeanne MIRIOT, res: France, Normandy, Rural. Mother of groom, married, deceased. / MARGUERIE, res: France, Normandy, Urban. Father of bride, married Marthe ROMAIN, res: France, Normandy, Urban. mother of bride, married Martial PIRAUBE, notary
Following the marriage of Jacques HERTEL to Marie MARGUERIE on 23 Aug
1641, both of their names begin to appear together in numerous Three
Rivers' baptism records. Most of these were Indian baptisms. Their own
children were bpt at Three Rivers, as follows: Francois HERTEL bpt 3 Jul
1642. His uncle, Francois MARGUERIE was the godfather. Father Jean de
Brebeuf himself officiated. Marie Madeleine HERTEL, b 2 Sep 1645, bpt 2
Sep 1645. Marguerite HERTEL, b 26 Aug 1649, bpt 26 Aug 1649
In SULTE's "Histoire de la...T-R" There is more info in the account about
HERTEL's being elected official receiver for T-R for the Compagnie des
Habitants in 1645 and about his building a small house on his property at
l'Arbe-a-la-Croix in 1644, but abandoned in 1647 because of the fear of
Indian attack. He lived at T-R until his sudden and accidental death in 1651.
ááááá
Child of Jacques HERTEL is:
á4901i.áOTS-TOCH, born Abt. 1620 in Mohawk Castle, NY; married Cornelise Antonise VAN SLYCK Bef. 1640.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post Script - his grandsons were Canadian military leaders of the Indian allies of New France in raids against the New England Colonies incl the massacre at Deerfield in 1704 and in Maine during that time span -GJR
More Replies:
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Re: Hertel de Chambly//website info
8/23/01
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Re: Hertel de Chambly//website info
Gerald Rice 8/23/01
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Re: Hertel de Chambly//website info