Starting Sept. 5, 2014, Genealogy.com will be making a big change. GenForum message boards, Family Tree Maker homepages, and the most popular articles will be preserved in a read-only format, while several other features will no longer be available, including member subscriptions and the Shop.
 
Learn more


Chat | Daily Search | My GenForum | Community Standards | Terms of Service
Jump to Forum
Home: Surnames: Cram Family Genealogy Forum

Post FollowupReturn to Message ListingsPrint Message

Re: Von Cramm 1160 begat Cram
Posted by: Barry Cram (ID *****7634) Date: December 14, 2011 at 01:16:55
In Reply to: Re: Von Cramm 1160 begat Cram by Von Me of 723

Hello Von Me,

For clarity, I will reply to your questions in the Question and Answer format, as follows:

QUESTION:
You say that Von Cramm told you that the German pedigree only shows one Hans Von Cramm b.1505 and he died in infancy. But on this other website I see that one "Hans Von Cram emigrated to England and entered the services of Cardinal Woolsey, Bishop Durham. He was later granted an estate for his services in fighting the Scots. Changed his name to Hans Cram." http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/d/Phyllis-J-Madix/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-Sources.html .

ANSWER:
Yes, Baron von Cramm told me that the German pedigree only shows one Hans von Cramm, b.1505, and that he died in infancy; but, the genealogical information created in the USA - on the website: http://www.familiecramme.de/Extracts_engl_/body_extracts_engl_.html, shows that a Hans von Cramm emigrating to England.

QUESTION:
That seems like an awful lot of information for someone to just invent, especially since those facts can probably be checked.

ANSWER:
You are correct in saying that this pedigree data and history is a lot of information, but the fact is that a man named Gustav Anjou was falsifying pedigrees for huge amounts of money at the time the American one was created. As my pedigree does not match with von Cramm I can only assume that this was one of his pedigrees. You must understand that Anjou was a master of mixing fact with fiction, and I feel that he made fools of us for centuries.

QUESTION:
Von Cramm of Germany told you that some castle walls only record one Hans Von Cramm who died in infancy - maybe this Von Cramm didn't tell you the truth, or made a mistake, or maybe this second Hans wasn't recorded on purpose for some reason

ANSWER:
He could have distorted the truth, but he wouldnt do that, as he is a doctor, and his word is inviolate to me.

QUESTION:
If you can trace your family tree back to Hans Von Cramm - and this Hans Von Cramm died in infancy, then how is it possible you could trace your family tree back to him? It seems to me you would only have to trace your family tree back to one Von Cramm - what difference does it make if there's a problem in 1504?

ANSWER:
I did not say that I can trace my pedigree back to Hans von Cramm; careful reading of my website will show that I said:
A Hans Von Cramm was found on the German pedigree as having been born 1504, Germany. The American and English branches were then added [by whose authority?] to the German pedigree through this Hans Von Cramm, and then the whole amalgamated German, English and American history-genealogy was compounded into one booklet, "Extracts From Contributions To The History of the Family Von Cramm", thus giving a continuous line back to the tenth century. [Most people around the world were given a copy of this work, and took it as gospel.]
In 1975, my father and I, obtained a copy of this booklet; and as we were both living near Felling, Durham, England, we thought it would be an excellent challenge to link our present English roots with this pedigree's John Cramm, supposedly b.1504, Germany - our earliest ancestor in Britain - we did, and were very proud.
So, as you see, I claimed a connection to John Cramm (supposedly b.1504), not Hans von Cramm. I also said that: We couldn't prove Hans's German connection to us, as the old Parish Records were either too worn to be readable, or were beyond our palaeographic capabilities.
It was 30 years after my father and I did our English pedigree that DNA proved that we were not connected to the noble von Cramm family; so the possible link to Hans von Cramm was now very unlikely. So yet again, I feel that Gustav Anjou was the instigator of this.

QUESTION:
If you believe in DNA testing, and you belive that all the testing of all the people tested was done accurately, then why are you pursueing a connection with the Von Cramms if your DNA proves that you are not related to them?

ANSWER:
Yes, I do believe in DNA testing, and the reason that I still hanker after the possibility of a connection to the von Cramm family, is because Im a romantic; and although this single DNA test shows that I am not related to the von Cramm family, my heart feels that I am... just look at the similarity between some of us!
Also, DNA testing shows that the DNA test results of some same-name (or similar named), male distant cousins can vary slightly.
Fact: Cram A might test negatively against Cram B, though Cram A could then test positively with Cram Bs known distant cousin, Cram C! Thus proving Cram As blood connection to Cram B. I have seen this happen with some American testers. So it is possible, that testing with a cousin of the von Cramm I previously tested with, could prove a match thus proving my connection with the previous von Cramm. But, I imagine that finding another von Cramm, willing to take a test would be difficult, as theyre so rare.

QUESTION:
You said somewhere that 2 of the people tested had identicatl DNA results. I don't think that is possible unless they were identical twin brothers. Were they?

ANSWER:
Yes, it is true that some of the testers had the exact same 43 Y-DNA marker results, but were not twins. I think you must be referring to chromosomes, which is different to Y-DNA.

QUESTION:
Perhaps the DNA testing was done accurately, but the results are being misinterpreted or misunderstood.

ANSWER:
There have been many Cram DNA tests done, in different labs, with exact matches, which proves the validity of the tests.

QUESTION:
Mistakes can be made on official documents, and documents can be lost or destroyed, but how is it possible that all the records for every member of a family just don't exist before a certain date? I can understand it if there are no records of them a thousand years ago, but in the last couple of hundred years - records were made of births, deaths, and marriages. If you can't trace your family back beyond a certain date, then what could be the reason? Where did all the records go? Hundreds of years of records can't just vanish. But if the family name changed, just once, then that would explain why you can't trace them back beyond a certain point.

ANSWER:
The logic behind this is that if there are no paper records to prove that we are related to the von Cramm family - and the many DNA tests back this up - then it is worth questioning the validity of the pedigree.

QUESTION:
Can you trace your family back to Germany at all? To any Von Cramm at all?

ANSWER:
To reiterate, DNA testing has proven that I am not related to the family von Cramm family.

QUESTION:
I don't know what the law is wherever you live, but in many states and provinces in North America a person can be convicted of murder in a court of law based on circumstancial evidence - based on probability, without any eyewitnesses or material evidence. So maybe you can't piece together every piece of the puzzle, and maybe somebody 500 years ago did die in infancy. Forget about DNA for a minute. From what you DO know, how probable is it that you are related by blood to the Von Cramms?

ANSWER:
Before DNA was involved my father and I - using indirect evidence, probability and paper evidence - had full confidence that we were related to the noble von Cramm family. So, if this was a court dispute, the whole case would rest on DNA evidence evidence which has put many people behind bars.

I would rather not continue this thread on here, as it seems to be turning slightly into a debate. If you would like to contact me by e-mail, please feel free to do so Id be very happy to hear more from you.

Regards,
Barry.

P. S. Together well find the answers.


Notify Administrator about this message?
Followups:
No followups yet

Post FollowupReturn to Message ListingsPrint Message

http://genforum.genealogy.com/cram/messages/699.html
Search this forum:

Search all of GenForum:

Proximity matching
Add this forum to My GenForum Link to GenForum
Add Forum
Home |  Help |  About Us |  Site Index |  Jobs |  PRIVACY |  Affiliate
© 2007 The Generations Network