Posted By:Kathie Buchanan
Subject:Re: How much Indian Am I?
Post Date:November 04, 2012 at 19:27:18
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Forum:American Indian Forum
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Just stumbled on this, and here's my 2 cents. Since your family obviously wasn't "Removed" and living ON a Reservation, they would NOT appear in the Dawes Records.
If the Two (GREGGS I believe?) mentioned were removed, and your relatives, some info might be found at Ft. Worth TX in "packets:, but, if Cora didn't 'remove' ("they hid"), as you say, then you won't likely her with them in "packets" either.

"Indians" were sometimes marked as "Black" or "MU" (Mulatto) in censuses. And, if they could "pass" for White, they did. Also, census takers often took down data from neighbors, so who knows?

Start at the beginning with what you know with dates, names, and start over. You might never find the answer in "documents", but if your mother has an "oral history", then I think that is just as good as most genealogy books floating around (and websites). This kind of discussion takes place all of the time, especially since more people tend to "romanticize" "Indians" today, or want to 'be' "Indian". (Or, mistakenly believe that they might be able to 'join" a Tribe. Some try to take advantage of educational funds too, and hiring priority (as 'minorities"). Tribes dislike this, of course, and for good reason.

Here's a case in point which I doubt can be reversed, even though I've found data to the contrary of this person being able to do what she has been doing (can't likely get her Cherokee 'card' revoked; she's too well known now for her 'crafts", and is also an atty. so I couldn't afford to try to expose or her make her show her 'proof' now. Proof of which isn't even on her public website:

One woman who is a successful attorney has multiple internet "stores" now selling under "Native American Arts & Crafts Act", yet she never knew that she was part "Indian" until she supposedly found an ancestor on The Dawes Roll Call (or saw the dollar signs? Or, so it seems.) And, all this "enrollment" came about how? She "doesn't know exactly". (Her) "sister" "did all of the work.", (yet on her website she states that she is an "only child"),
somehow got her connected to The Dawes Final Roll Call records, (through either a BUTLER who was "denied" as far as I could see on her documents from now gone websites and other references), and she also states that she is a descendant of the "famous" Nancy Ward ("Beloved Woman" of the Cherokee.) (The websites are taken down, and now virus alerts in Wayback Machine or to look at downed sites still show some of this, but you'd need to BUY her many DVD's/CD's for her "research". She has not responded to inquiries about this matter, and left a research group after she'd gotten into selling her "new found Indian Heritage". So, if people are hard on you, the above is a good example as to why. And, also, one of the lines through which she supposedly found this info, is from one of the many John's in the research group mentioned, and which people are fighting about which John____ in NC, and "no Indian", others saying "Indian" lineages.

The Cherokee in Oklahoma have stopped giving these "Blue Cards" which only show an Honorary Membership, not a Full Membership, (not a CDIB card), out like candy. But if she's right, then I apologize, but one here would likely dispute her "Indian" lineage as well w/ THAT John ___. (Sorry, I can't give you any names or last names here.) The point is this: She never even suspected that she had any Indian blood, and now profits from her supposed connection. (Back in 2005 or so, Cherokee Indian Nation Oklahoma was letting all kinds of people have those "honorary cards", including the infamous "Ward Churchill" among others who ended up being fakes or were "adopted", or based on their work, etc., who got an "Honorary Card" without much "documentation", if any at all.

That's changed for ALL tribes; Cherokee Eastern Band is a good example of that. Their Rolls are closed, and they weren't helping anyone with Cherokee ancestry in that Tribal Nation; probably still aren't. (I'd last visited there several years ago.)

Now, except for the many non-Federally Recognized Tribes in many states who will actually sell you a membership, even if you are 100% Euro, to boost their numbers and get at least "State Recognition", (which potentially 'opens the door' for casinos, and especially sales of "Genuine Indian Made" crafts, you name it.)

No wonder Fed. Recognized Tribal Nations are so upset w/ "wannabes". (AND, the profiting off too many on their Sacred Ceremonies. Most "New Age" retreats offer a one week stay (Borderlands in SD for eg.) at $6000.00 a week which might include a "sweat lodge", a ceremonial event, etc. And, some of their own are indeed responsible for the selling of their culture, esp. in Europe.

There are plenty of authentic tribal members unable to sell their "real"/authentic "Indian Made" arts & crafts by law, for a myriad of reasons (One being not having money to make quality products, another marketing (since many don't even have computers on The Rez's), and "Authentic Native American Indian Made" is often more expensive due to the time involved in making say a "cradleboard" or hand-beaded moccasins for example. And so it goes. Then, we have "Native American "inspired" products which flood every Pow-Wow/"Festival" and like events. And, we have the internet "vendors". In fact, most Pow-Wow vendors are White, or some other Ethnic Group, but not as many "Native American/American Indians" have the cheap stuff at such events.

As for me, and despite all of 'this', I still say "believe your mother", but an mt-dna test would tell you for sure if your mother is indeed "A, B, C, D, or X" (The typical "Native American" Haplogroups), which might help you put this to rest, or venture forward. "Q" is a more recent addition to DNA "nomenclature".

If you do a Family Finder, 23andme or other atdna test,(autosomal dna test for all sides 5 gens back, your Haplo group won't mean a thing.) The mtdna test alone should suffice in yours & your mother's case, and isn't terribly expensive compared to the others. You will find out if you have 1/8th Native American "dna" if you take the test, but I'd suggest that your mother take the mt-dna (Mitochondrial Dna test from the mother's, mother's, mother's...unbroken line.)

Still, some services like dnaconsultants dot com
will say that even the Euro Haplos with the Cherokee are 'different', and may not be reliable. Some women with HV* R0 also have solid paper trails to a maternal 'Native' or Cherokee lineage. (You can find a discussion on that in other forums too. Google Haplo HV* R0 Roanoke
and see if you find the board (not here) , and a number of "Native women" w/ that Haplo.

The same company above, offers further testing, and a "fingerprint" test. (Fingerprints used in 'forensic science"/crime have long been used to determine differences in Ethnicity & even have been used in separating which Twin was the "perp" in a crime, in twins w/ the same DNA. The whorls and arches and such are said to determine ethnicity. You can find more info on how to make a print and look at your own arches and whorls, but it takes an expert.

(Also, you might want to look at "Melungeons" as an aside.)

If the above company finds that you are indeed "Native American", despite Haplogroups showing Euo or other, by 'fingerprinting', they send a 'certificate" of "Native American Heritage". Other forums have discussed this, so do some digging. I don't think that any dna test can give you the tribe that you might be from though.

I will note that my son matched an Asian man, a Japanese, man and a Nigerian man, none of which had his exact Haplo.
No one completely matched my son. Lots of "cousins" to try to contact with at-dna tests, but my son only wanted the test for "health" reasons, and I am not at liberty to contact any of my potential "cousins" (all 3rd to 6th or greater w/ no strong 'matches", out of respect for his privacy. 23andme didn't rule out a "Native American" ancestor beyond 5 gens for him (4 gens for me).

As per the Asian, it is a small percentage, and Asians can have "D" Haplos too, or at least his "match" had a D Haplo who is Chinese.). He also has a "higher than usual" %age of "Neanderthal", but mostly Euro, which was expected on his Paternal lines esp. (which is also where the "Asian" came in; his 'chinese eyes' he was taunted about all of his life; similar to his father's blue eyes w/ the extra fold, and his grandpa's from Czech/Russia, and his Pat. grandmtr. from Poland. My son is 'dark', has very dark brown, thick hair, and very dark brown eyes. So does my mother (black hair, dk. brown eyes), and me. My Pat. grandmother's family were all 'dark', almost black hair and dark brown eyes. Some of my cousins really 'look native' too from her lines)

As for my sons Maternal lines, since many of my ancestors are German, Scotch, Irish, French and such, I haven't a clue. Her genealogy is pretty well documented, but then again, who knows? My lines all come from old settlers to my knowledge.

But his/my Maternal lines come from a 'rare lineage' too, & all results are combined in atdna testing with both sides of his Paternal & Maternal sides, 5 gens back. Our 'Haplos mean nothing" in an atdna test, said one expert. His Maternal (me) had our most 'MRCA" or 'Most Recent Common Ancester at 339,000 years ago, (not a big help!) and showed an 'origins" map: we are "out of Africa then, (See 'Seven Daughter's of Eve" or mitochondrial eve in a search) He also showed as being from "Doggerland, a real live Atlantis", they say. (under water along the coast of Eurasia today).

On another note, one who replied here has been pretty much fighting the idea that he has any "Native" blood by Y-dna which doesn't show his mother's mt-dna, which he may or may not have had done by now. I won't check.
It's not really about him, except that the answers you got are based on a deep dislike for those who have one of his ancestors with a "Native American" lineage by "paper trail", but more so "oral history", which is greatly disputed among a great and large number who "claim" that particular ancestor, or some relationship to him, (via brothers, uncles, cousins, and so forth). In a nutshell, the early settlers of those lines who fought the Indians, as did many NC settlers who pushed into the interior West of the Alleghenies/Appalachian Trail, against the laws of the time (See: Royal Proclamation Line 1763, and go further with that history as to when/how lands opened up legally later and (Indian) "Treaties" (too many to mention here) made/broken/re-made, etc.).

Many atrocities were committed by both sides, so then, to put it mildly, "dislike" of any "Indians" is obvious for the reasons given.

Be careful with selecting a company to do any DNA tests with. Family Finder recently had to re-do all of their tests due to a "problem", and all of the companies test "differently" and don't share much of each others' data. (How they test; it IS a lucrative business (too many details to go into here, but they use a "chip" on one segment of dna to put it simply, & from what "experts" have relayed; it's way too involved to go into here.)

I'm no expert, but I can share what I have experienced w/ testing so far.

You do get an mtdna portion from your father (XY) which is roughly half of your dna, which includes his mother's X. You get roughly half from your mother who has two (XX). (Some is "junk dna" and has "mutations")

Sex of a child is often said to be determined by these factors alone, but it's become more complicated now. Do some digging if interested. Tons of info on the I-net.

Good luck, if still reading this. 2006 post. I'm sure that I will corrected, if I've made any errors here. Just no nasty emails plz:)

Kathie (Who was asked just this summer by a nice old Christian man, who he says people call him "Angel Man, after he gave me an angel pin, Is your mother white?" And, I have even been called a "squaw" at Wal-mart by complete strangers. And, whose grandmother told me that we "are Indians back in the early 60's when I was but a small child, and it wasn't "popular".) I don't match anyone in a research group of over 600 people, and now have these 'cousins' to try to find w/o using my son's 23andme atdna results/account. But, I believe my grandmother, and was once told by an MRI doctor who did my skull that I am "American Indian". He also commented about my facial bone structure and hair texture. I was gowned w/o any jewelry or other "hints", and I likely had on a pair of jeans and a sweater or something comfortable (like "sweats") when I went for the inner ear infection MRI. Is it possible that Dr. could tell me that and know? Yes, my obsession w/ genealogy is likely based on finding 'proof', but in over 25 years, I have not been able to get back more than my g-gftr. on my dad's side (His mother said we are "Indians"). And, no more than my 3rd Gr-gftr. on my Father's maternal side. (Never mind finding out about the women! Think about it: We do not really even have Surnames except for what we inherit from our male lineages.)

An mt-dna test will not show me if I am "part Indian", unless my mother is (I'm not sure that I expect that.) The mt-dna of my father was passed on to me (XY), but my mom gave me her (XX). (I just can't explain all of this to you, but I'm trying!)

BUT, the mother of the female predominates the mt-dna, and it is only your mother's, mother's, mother's mt-dna that will be tested. The son's do not pass on the Paternal mother's mt-dna to their children, and the daughters of the father end up with their mother's XX and father's XY dna. But, the daughters do not pass on the mt-dna from their father's mother, unless it might be shown(unsure about this; thinking atdna might though)is shown in "deep clade dna.
From ftdna, (likely the better of the companies most say): (Deep Clade tests offered (which confirms STR's using SNP's (gotta love this kind of trying to "make sense" of the "language" alone!?):

"haplogroups E, G, H, I, J, N, O, Q, and R. The tests begin with the haplogroup predicted based on your DNA sample’s results, and then tests whatever SNPs are necessary in order to determine your precise placement on the haplogroup tree." But, note, that is only after another test has been taken, mo money, mo money! And notice that they aren't testing ALL of the possible Haplos, esp. A, B, and C, which is what you would need to find for "Native American".)

"Predicted" is a big word. Lots of "probably" and maybe" too in DNA tests. Also, depends are if any of YOUR ancestors are even in that database. Apparently, not many of mine are.

"atdna testing" might show more cousins and ethnicity, but is vague and you need to chase down the possible "cousins" or they find you. Then, you compare "paper trails, not Haplos (because they won't exactly 'match").

I'll try to explain some more of how the Dna works:
The daughters pass on their own mother's mt-dna, not their father's mother, in Mt-Dna tests. All Y-Dna tests must be based on unbroken lines (w/no "extra paternal" events/children born from another man, adoption for eg.)
If you test just your father's Y-dna from that ONE line of males, you will not show as being "Native American", unless he is, but he is Euro, right? Or, maybe not. Look for a surname Y-Dna project for your father's Surname and take a look at test results. Or look for the ftdna page results for names. Maybe something will help you. In what is Nashville, TN today, and elsewhere, there sure is a long history of "Natives" and whites having children together. Even the early 1900's censuses of the Six Nations state that each had at least one "Colonial Ancestor".