Which Spencer m. which Lucas?
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In reply to:
Re: Charles Ewell Carter NOT son of George and Frances
Dick Hulan 3/22/11
Funny that you should ask about the Lucas family - this dosn't really answer your question, but we first need to sort out the three or four Carter families in the area at the time of the Revolution.(Capt. George Carter of the Pittsylvania Militia is my wife's proven ancestor).An exact Cut & Paste from our notes found at:
http://home.comcast.net/~zieman3/familytree.htmhttp://home.comcast.net/~zieman3/familytree.htm
We all need to thank Mildred Fournier for her critical input"
In brief:There were TWO Spencer Carters of colonial Halifax, Virginia, most probably first cousins.Thing is, we prove one to be in today's Pittsylvania County as a son of Richard, while there is clearly a separate Spencer in today's Halifax.This in turn adds weight to the BEST GUESS that George of Thomas, father of Spencer of Halifax - and otherwise unaccounted for - was the George Carter to replace Powell as Captain of the Halifax Militia.He in turn should not be confused with his first cousin, Capt. George Carter of the Pittsylvania Militia - uncle to Richard above.
Which Spencer Carter married Verlinda Lucas in Halifax County, Virginia?
a) the son of the unknown Capt. George Carter of the Halifax Militia of 1781, or the son of
b) George of Caroline, son of Thomas of Glouchester - who may or may not be the same person above -
and who is reported by John of The Nest to have gone "to the southern counties" ... and at the same time ...
who is reported to have sons with the names George, Presley, Richard, Spencer et. al., or the son of
c) the previously unknown Richard Carter (erroneously listed as George by Dr. Miller **),
proven by land deeds on the Halifax / Pittsylvania line with sons of the very same name?
Thing is, the last two candidates are first cousins, a few times removed.
Opening dilemma: Five different members of the Carter Society of Virginia use: Capt. Thomas Carter of Barford, Edward, Thomas and then George of Caroline m. Frances Neale, with different children in Halifax.
At first glance, it is so tempting to dismiss this because of the hallucinations of Dr. Miller - he really went off the wall on this one and thoroughly mixed two different George Carters - both proven back to Lancaster County, Virginia.And then, a Frances Neale has never been proven - neither in Caroline, nor Halifax!(All John of The Nest said was that George (Sr. of Caroline) married a Miss Neale).Besides the Thomas, Theodrick and Richard Carters proven from Giles of Henrico in the area, we have to contend with at least two sets of cousins originally from the Barford repleat with George, Richard, Presley, Spencer et. al.:
1. John of The Nest (MSS 1858) on George Carter of Caroline: "George married a Miss Neale ..... and later ..... I have seen George, jun. a few times. He died in Fauquier about thirty years ago, and also spent a night once at John's Tavern in Caroline. I think the other all moved to the southern counties, or may be out of the State."
Let's really examine this statement - was it ONLY John and George Jr. who are proven back in Caroline? Should "all other to the southern counties" be taken literally?So that Spencer, and his father George of Caroline, could be the Carters of (today's) Halifax in 1781??Where the other set of George, Richard and Spencer (first cousins, a few times removed) were not far away in the newly separated Pittsylvania County - on the upper reaches of Doubles Creek, literally on the Halifax / Pittsylvania border?
Separately, all the writer said was a "Miss Neale": from day one, there was never any proof of a Frances Neale - neither in Caroline nor Halifax; on the other hand, we have no clue as to the maiden name of the Frances who married Richard of the above Doubles Creek.
And then, wouldn't it make more sense if George Sr. of Caroline, son of Thomas - possible witness to the 1771 and 1773 deeds in Halifax proper below, as well as the Captain of Militia in 1781 Halifax (to replace Powell) -was born in 1745, as proven by his sisters bible, rather than the wild guess of 1725 from Dr. Miller?!?
2. ** The widow Frances Carter of Halifax was the wife of a Richard Carter - most likely the grandson of James Carter of Stafford, and at the same time, nephew to the Capt. George Carter (son of said James) right next door to him on the Halifax/Pittsylvania border.With absolute certainty, she was NOT the Frances Neale concocted by Dr. Miller from the phrase by John of The Nest that George (Sr.) married a Miss Neale.
In all of the following, please note how Richard on Doubles Creek married Frances - while the Richard (with brothers Thomas and Theodrick - all from Giles of Henrico on the Dan River itself) married Mary Ann:
Contrast and Compare: (per clues provided by Joe Carter on GenForum ): It [Doubles Creek on the Halifax/Pittsylvania border] is not far away, some seven miles as the crow flys, but a good ten miles by road and ferry on the north side of the Dan River - while the following is proven on the south side:Halifax: Deeds (? Vol.) pg. 218: Mar 1, 1771 "Theodorick Carter of H to Thomas Lipscomb of H 106 a. on Wynns Cr. --- witnesses --- Foster, Farley, Kearby, Townes, Sneed, Dobbie, GEORGE CARTER, Jones, Malone.
Deeds (? Vol.) pg. 42: May 19, 1773 From Richard Carter and Mary Ann his wife --- 200 acres
"lying on the draughts of Pole Cat and Bad Luck Creeks". Wit. GEORGE CARTER etc.etc.etc.
(Richard, son of George of Caroline - and now possibly of Halifax - would be too young to be the husband of this Mary Ann.From combined research however, we know there were a few different Richard Carters in the area - we just can't begin to separate them at this point in time).
Thing is, Joe Carter has proven there was a set of Richard and Theodrick Carters from Henrico in the area --- and yet --- there is no known George Carter from Giles of Henrico!No George from Henrico, and then, proof that Capt. George Carter of the Pittsylvania Militia (now proven as the great uncle of Spencer instant) is a completely separate individual, leaves the door wide open for the George of 1781 Halifax!
However, there is neither a George Carter, nor any Lucas in the 1782 Halifax County Tax List:
Thomas Carter - 2 Tithes, and his brother right next door - these three are from Henrico:
Theod. Carter - also 2 Tithes - George White Jr. and Sr. next door
Richard Carter - 1 Tithe, surrounded by Richard Cox and William Cole
Mary Carter - no Tithes but some 43 pieces of livestock, surrounded by Coleman and Dodson
Richard Carter - 1 Tithe, 40 pieces livestock, in neighborhood of Dodson and Waddell
(Dodson and Waddell as immediate neighbors is absolute proof these last two entries were on the Upper Reaches of Doubles Creek, exact location of George of Stafford next.Separately, Presley, son of Richard of Stafford - now on Doubles Creek - has a proven marriage to Anne Waddell).
2.A.The Capt. George Carter of the 1771, 1778 and 1779 citations in Pittsylvania is the said uncle of Richard and the holder of the 1766 and 1768 patents erroneously cited by Dr. Miller to George of Caroline.Once again with absolute certainty, the George Carter to replace Powell as Capt. of the Militia in 1781 Halifax was a different person from the Capt. George Carter of the 1779 Pittsylvania Militia - where the latter is then proven beyond all doubt in Montgomery County VA by 1781.
"The 354 Acre Patent to George Carter on 20 Jul 1768 is on the middle left edge of Grid 16.C. [Property Lines From An Old Survey Book Halifax Co VA1741-1901 Roger C. Dodson].Consistent with comments on land of Richard, both of these Grids are divided by the Halifax / Pittsylvania line running NE on Magnetic North. The majority of this Patent is in Pittsylvania but is surrounded by Walters, Viletto and Stamps * in Halifax, on draughts of Doubles Creek. (35 Shillings, Va. Pat. Bk 37., pp. 270, 271")
"21 Jul 1773, Richard and Frances Carter sold 100 acres to George Carter.
Witnesses: Thomas Walters *, I.N. Walters, Robert Walters. Halifax Bk 3, pg. 336".
"At a court held Sept 25, 1778, Walters was appointed first lieutenant, John Hall secondlieutenant and John Stamps ensign in Captain George Carter's company of County Militia". Clement op.cit.
"In 1787, Richard CARTER, gunsmith is shown as the owner of 299 acres". (Bought 400, sold 100 to George, 1 acre to Vestry / burying ground ****)."The inventory of his personal estate was taken on 17 Jul 1787 by L. RAGLAND, John MOORE and Caleb DODSON". Database of Mildred Fournier.
Quick double check of reality - without a clue, never mind proof, from anyone:
a) Spencer of Richard of Stafford / Halifax married Verlinda Lucas 18 December 1804 ***
b) Spencer of George of Caroline / Halifax married Matilda Lucas before 1833???
"His wife seems to have inherited half of a tract of 290 acres in Halifax from her father,
James Lucas, as Dec. 1, 1833. Spencer Carter and wife, Matilda and Richard T.
Dismukes and wife, Mary, conveyed to Charles Lucas the tract of 290 acres, which
James Lucas had died seized and possessed of".
Can't fault Dr. Miller on this one: we have some circumstantial evidence - but not even reasonable proof - for the presence of another George, Richard and Spencer Carter in Halifax proper (and not Pittsylvania just a dozen miles upstream).Two cousins could have married two sisters OR there is the distinct possibility for a second marriage of the same Spencer to a sister!!!We just can't say.
Consider several pieces of data:As an aside, the brothers of Spencer of Doubles Creek are proven to have removed west to Tennessee, but there is no further sign of that Spencer himself until 1805 - BUT - notice who's proven as the next door neighbor to the Carters of Doubles Creek:
1. Page 131. Jan 17, 1791 from William Waddill of H, to Presley Carter, for 9 £ 15 shillings, about 16 1/2 acres in H. Signed - William Waddill. Wit -James Lucas, Leaven Carter, Nathaniel (X his mark) Waddell. Recorded Jun 27, 1791.(The names Waddill and Leaven prove this is on Doubles Creek - and not down river at Danville - again, Presley of Richard married Anne Waddill).
2. Page 325. act 24, l79l from John Caldwell of H, to William' Caldwell of H, for 60 £, about 85 acres in H on the branches of Dan River. Signed -John Caldwell. Wit - Presley Carter, David Caldwell, John (X his mark) Roper, Charles Ewel Carter. Recorded Apr 23, l792.
3. Page 20. Jul 20, 1793 from Charles Wall of H, to William Waddill of H, for 38 £, a certain tract of land in H and Pittsylvania County, containing about 52 acres, and bounded on the south by the lands of Charles Allen, on the west by the land of Charles Pursel, on the north by the land of Brister Truman., and on the east by the land of Othe Tharp . Signed -Charles Wall. Wit -H Cook, Jesse Carter, James Douglass, Levin Carter, James Lucus, William Combs, John Owen, Robert Carter. Recorded Sep 23, 1793.
4.Page 14. May 15, 1793 from William Waddell of H, to Charles Kennan of Granville County, North Carolina, for 50 £, a certain tract of land lying in Pittsylvania County and H an the branches of Woolf Hill Cr, containing about 108 acres. Signed -William Waddill. Wit -William Combs, Levin Carter, James Lucus. Recorded Sep 23, 1793
5.On 7 Apr 1805 *** Presley CARTER, Levin CARTER, Thompson CARTER and Frederick MILLER [husband of Mary] sold to Spencer CARTER, 100 acres of Richard CARTER's land.(This particular set of names is beyond all doubt for the Carters on the Upper Reaches of Doubles Creek - proven back to James Carter of Stafford, son of Capt. Thomas Carter Sr.).
As an aside, this last transaction proves it was not Thompson Carter of Halifax
appearing with Francis J. Carter in the Wythe County VA Lodge in 1800.
6. Dr. Miller: "May 1, 1856, Spencer Carter conveyed by deed to his son, Richard Carter, his home place of 200 acres of land lying in the counties of Halifax andPittsylvania, with the exception of one acre - the burying ground ****. He had houses on each side of the county line, and Nov. 26, 1830, was living on the Pittsylvania side, when he purchased a hundred acres of land in Halifax from C. I. Evans". [This set of Richard - Spencer - Richard carries the tradition of given names for grandparents back in Stafford County].
Viz. a viz. - on the Waters of the Dann, no branches thereof:
Page 293. Aug 2, 1794 from Francis Carter of H of Antrim Parish, to Benjamin Hobson of the same County and Parish, for 12 £, about 12 acres in H on the waters of Dann River, it being a corner & quantity of the sd Francis Carter's land lying on the south side of the main road crossing Toby Cr & Henry Hobson Boleing's path out to sd Road, and is bounded by the lines of Benja Hobson, John Moore, and the sd Francis Carter. Signed - Francis Carter. Wit -Theo. Carter, Thomas Carter, Jesse Carter, James Morehead, John N. Brandon. Recorded Jan 26, 1795.[This Francis of Halifax was not with Thompson Carter at the Wythe Lodge].
Inescapable Conclusion - Not Proof
Ya Know ... the future father-in-law right next door on the Halifax / Pittylvania border in 1791, and then, a marriage and a buyout four months apart *** over the winter of 1804/1805 sure sounds like it's Spencer of Richard!Therefore, the ancestors of three of the members of The Carter Society of Virginia needs to be rewritten (the other two of George Jr. who removed to Fauquier - and John The Tavern Keeper of Caroline):
Capt. Thomas Carter Sr. m. Katherine Dale
James of Stafford Carter m.1. Hannah Neale (notice the root source of the name)
Presley of Stafford Carter m. Unknown
Richard of Doubles Creek Carter m. Frances Unknown (possibly a Neale) - and then,
Spencer Carter m. Verlinda Lucas, and
Mary Carter m. Frederick Miller in Halifax
And yes, Mary's marriage to Frederick Miller is extensively proven in the greater Halifax
County: John Frederick Miller is a well proven founder of today's Henry County - then
known as "West Halifax" on the branches of the Mayo River.
This still leaves the mystery of the Capt. George Carter of 1781 Halifax!
And by the way, the whereabouts of George Carter Sr. last seen in Caroline!
As well as his set of Presley, Richard, Spencer, Thomas, etc. - we do have
George Jr. accounted for in Fauquier, and John The Tavern Keeper in Caroline.
Miscellaneous Notes - on the remaining George Carters of Virginia:
Signers of the Oath of Allegiance in Henry County VA in 1778:
Bailey Carter (Middlesex) George Carter (Unknown)--- and --- Baines Carter, Josiah Carter (Giles of Henrico)
Thanks to Joe and Peyton Carter, Bailey is well set in the William of Middlesex - repleat with the Goodloe; as unusual as it may be, there is proof he and his son John then removed north to today's Montgomery County VA. His uncle George has proven probate in 1789 Caroline ... and ... George of Joseph and Catherine Ammon Carter is cited in a 1766 Buckingham deed and has his probate in 1806 Buckingham.So we are still left hanging as to the George Carters.
BUT - this proves there were at least three George Carters in Southern Virginia at the time of the Revolution:
1) this unknown George in Henry County (on the Mayo River) in 1778, *
2) the Capt. George Carter (of the Barford) who took the same oath in Pittsylvania County, and
3) the unknown Capt. George Carter of 1781 Halifax.*
* Either of these two could be the witness to the 1771 and 1773 deeds on the Dan River
OR that witness could be a fourth George Carter!
Dr. Miller was not the only one to Goof Up:
Let me tell you what I found when I was in Washington, DC..............
You know that Hezekiah Smithson's wife, Henrietta Carter. Well Henrietta's father's name is Presley Carter, and mother is Anne Waddell... Presley Carter's parents names are George Carter and Frances Diana Goodloe.... [There is much confusion on the whereabouts for this George (of the Middlesex) but he is NOT the father of the Presley, Richard, Spencer and Levine on the Halifax border ].
More Replies:
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Which James Lucas's dau. m. Spencer Carter (b. 1773)?
Dick Hulan 3/23/11