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Hi Linda - sad to say my original post was short and not terribly clear. I ASSUMED we were all familiar with Gen. Carter and the books on The Presidents - I was by no means referring to the Douglas Register - that is a collective document and not a book. However --- two or three days later --- I maintain there remains SOME doubt about the three Thomas Carters. I've polished and augmented our notes and acknowledge Dan's work that Thomas Carter of Goochland JUNIOR PROBABLY married Mary Caroll / Carrell.
Without clearly stating it, he is of course implying that Susannah Banes was the mother of the children of Thomas Sr. - please take separate note below that just two years ago, Dan himself was suggesting Thomas Jr. married Kilpatrick!
And then, it's not the Douglas Register itself that proves the case, but the 1751 date of marriage for Thomas and Mary Kilpatrick "demands" that he is a third Thomas of Goochland - per my cryptic comments in the following, we must look at the Big Picture. Our notes:
No one, repeat no one, has yet noted and clearly separated the THREE Thomas Carters of Goochland. Because of the lack of dates of birth, there was - and remains - much legitimate confusion over the Thomas Carters of Goochland. First of all, the Gen. Carter book on Josiah set all of us off on the wrong track when it came to the Thomas Carters; and then, the books on the Presidents added to the confusion with the several lines of Thomas Carters from Virginia down in the Carolinas and Georgia. Don't forget that Thomas of Mecklenburg is proven in Georgia and is the proven first cousin of Thomas Jr. of Goochland! We just don't know.
To wit: "About the time Josiah Carter transferred the Reedy Creek property to his brother Baynes, Josiah, along with a contingent of other Henry County, Virginia, families, migrated farther south to the state of Georgia".
To wit: ""Thomas Carter in Goochland married Mary Kilpatrick dau of Alexander Kilpatrick & Easley woman(you can find two sons birth date in Douglas Reg in Goochland. Mary's bro died in (I can remember right now) S.C. I think and in his WILL he Names Thomas Carter in Goochland & son Alexander Carter (Mary's Husband & son.)"
No, these are not directly the Thomas Carters of Goochland - but don't cousins and inlaws count?
Dan Wallace is beginning to sort this out and from his material below, he appears to conclude:
Thomas Carter Sr. "of Goochland" m.1. Susannah Baynes, m.2. Penele Unknown (NOT Carrol)- died 1738.
Thomas Carter Jr. "of Goochland" PROBABLY married Mary Carrol / Carrell - died 1763.
Was it then Thomas III who married Mary Kilpatrick in 1751 - OR - a Thomas Carter of Barford, Lancaster County, Virginia? It would certainly NOT make sense for Thomas III to marry in Goochland (on the James River), and then have a son marry back up in Lancaster (on the Rappahannock). One can not help recall the perfect analogy in the ludicrous entry by Gen. Carter that Giles Carter of King George eminated from the Giles of Henrico - in other words, Dr. Miller was not the only one to jump to erroneous conclusions! (The listings for a Thomas Carter III of Oglethorpe, Georgia are erroneous confusion for the son of Thomas of Mecklenburg).
On the other hand, wouldn't it make Common Sense (but by no means proof) for a proven marriage in 1751 with the birth of your first-born Thomas III in 1753? To date, we have no Thomas Carter of Lancaster County born circa 1753 unaccounted for. (Thomas Preston Carter of the Barford is well proven with a marriage to Susannah Gaines). Once again, we just don't know. Has Linda next, confused another pair of Thomas Carters?
In any event and whatever his ancestry, we collectively need to pursue the life and times of the Thomas Carter who married Mary Kilpatrick. Sad to say, forget anything you may currently find on either RootsWeb or the Carter GenForum.
Posted by: Linda Fluharty Date: August 24, 1998 In Reply to: Thomas Carter.. Lancaster Co., VA by Linda Fluharty [sic - to herself] Linda lists this Thomas "of Lancaster" - to wit: Carter, Thomas m 21 Nov 1771 Elizabeth Doggett Sur William Griggs Lancaster Co Mar Bond
"Have discovered Thomas in the DAR Patriot Index, b. 19 June 1753, d. 9 Feb 1825. Marriage Record in Early Virginia Marriages by Southern Book Co., 1953, lists marriage as 21 Nov 1771. A Family Bible of Thomas' son, John W. Carter, gives Thomas' parents as Thomas Carter and Mary Kilpatrick. Their marriage is in the Douglas Register, page 14, indicating that the marriage was recorded on pages 21-26 of the Parish Register of Goochland begun ANNO 1756 by William Douglas, Minister. (Fay Parrish Wade of the Carter Society of Virginia has a transcription of this bible. Separately, Linda goes on to erroneously cite the will of Thomas of Mecklenburg for that of Thomas III instant).
"Thomas Carter was born 19 June 1753 VA and he died 9 Feb 1825 VA. He married Elizabeth Doggett 21 Nov 1771. Looking for ancestors of both Thomas & Elizabeth. Thomas served in the Revolutionary War".
Yes, we have had exquisite details on the wills and deaths, but not a word on the births. Therefore, we MUST use Senior, Junior and Thomas III in all future discussions. Separately, Holly Carter has posted contra info that Thomas of Mecklenburg (of Robert) is her ancestor, and he is NOT Thomas instant; and then, she is the only person to date to openly question which Thomas married Kilpatrick:
This Thomas Carter is not "my" Thomas Carter of Mecklenburg County,
Virginia but a lot people have confused this Thomas Carter with "my"
Thomas Carter so I'm posting this database of the Kilpatrick family and
this Thomas Carter in the hopes it will bring some clarification.
I don't know if the Thomas Carter & Miss Kilpatrick (daughter of
Alexander Kilpatrick) are the same couple as the Thomas Carter & Mary
Killypatrick who married in Goochland County, Virginia in 1751 or not.
More research needs to be done here.
I expect they are two different couples as the Kilpatrick-Carter
couple seem to have lived earlier than the Killypatrick-Carter couple.
Finally, with the date of marriage of Thomas III to Mary Kilpatrick in 1751, we again need to move the dates of birth back for the children of Thomas II from the thirties to the late twenties (yet allow for the birth of Baynes in 1745)! These are still Best Guesses. The entry in the Douglas Register by itself does not prove which Thomas married Mary Kilpatrick; however, if we add Dan's work on the Mary Carroll marriage below, then we have a solid "body of circumstantial evidence".
The point taken from Holly Carter Dunlop above is that none of us has a firm handle on the dating of these Carters of Goochland.
For example, in a prior message from Dan Wallace: "Thomas Carter Jr.'s [that's Junior] Last Will and Testament was written 14 February 1760 and was recorded in Goochland County on 19 April 1763. If his sons were named in chronological order, his oldest would have been Thomas [III], then John, then Josiah, then Baynes. In his Will, Thomas Carter refers to his ’Youngest sons, that is to say John Carter, Josiar [sic] Carter, and Baynes Carter.’ He also refers to his wife Mary Carter. Mary may have been Mary Kilpatrick based on the 1751 marriage recorded in the Douglas Register for Thomas Carter to Mary Kilpatrick".
Even Dan Wallace originally skipped a generation! If we look at the Big Picture, however, a marriage in 1751 HAS to be Thomas III. Once again with emphasis, it's Senior, Junior and Thomas the Third.
We REALLY need to look into Thomas III - whatever his parentage?!?!?
I will separately be contacting Fay Wade Parrish, President Pro Tempe of the Carter Society of Virginia - she has a complete transcript of the bible of Daniel W. Carter.
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