Starting Sept. 5, 2014, Genealogy.com will be making a big change. GenForum message boards, Family Tree Maker homepages, and the most popular articles will be preserved in a read-only format, while several other features will no longer be available, including member subscriptions and the Shop.
 
Learn more


Chat | Daily Search | My GenForum | Community Standards | Terms of Service
Jump to Forum
Home: General Topics: American Revolution Genealogy Forum

Post FollowupReturn to Message ListingsPrint Message

DAR Evaluated - 43 Statements Pro and Con - Source Washington Post Newspaper
Posted by: Wayne Witt Bates (ID *****7673) Date: August 01, 2011 at 15:12:52
  of 18087

DAR Evaluated - 43 Statements Pro and Con - Source Washington Post Newspaper

PETITION SEEKING FAIR TREATMENT FROM DAR FOR REV. WAR SOLDIER:

SOURCE
Daughters of the American Revolution challenged by Bates family of Old Virginia By Annys Shin, Published: July 15, 2001 in Style Section of Washington Post.

DAR EVALUATED - 43 VIEWS PRO AND CON - SOURCE WASHINGTON POST

Tscsalon
Wayne Bates is my granduncle. He wanted me to join the DAR a few years back so I contacted a local chapter here in Texas. Found out I could not attend on my own but had to be sponsored. That didn't sit too well with me, but made the arrangements because I love my uncle. The day of the meeting I came down very sick and wasn't able to attend and,
although I emailed, didn't have the direct number of the *sponsor*. I said I'd like to arrange to come back again and never got a reply.Decided that an organization that exclusive that you can't just go without an invite is too pinkies-up for me. I also do Smiths Worldwide
DNA project at FamilyTreeDNA and KNOW that the DNA tests sometimes disprove a match or find one that isn't immediately obvious through paper. The fact that the DAR doesn't accept DNA evidence is also a significant reason not to belong. I am, however, proud of my Reuben Bates ancestry and it is due to the exhaustive, diligent efforts of
Uncle Wayne, who has been an avid, persistent researcher for years,that not just I but a huge number of people have found their ancestors,not only for the Bates surname but others as well.
7/17/2011 1:20:57 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 1 readerReport

oypay
"Bates, who resembles Colonel Sanders in giant square eyeglasses, began shooting off daily e-mails to DAR genealogists. He went on genealogy message boards and posted mini-screeds with titles such as 'Current Rigid Methodology Renders DAR Immune to Logic' and 'DAR credibility suffers.'"

Mr. Bates seems to be spending a lot of his time in childish
retaliation via message boards & "mini-screeds." I have no doubt he called someone at the WashPost & asked them to write this article as a personal vendetta against the DAR. I'm also pretty sure that the DAR genealogists would have been more than happy to assist him with his search for documentation if he had asked them instead of spending time
on his rants.

Mr. Bates: It doesn't cost anything to be nice.
7/17/2011 6:56:15 AM EDTUnrecommendRecommended by 2 readers and you Report

Example -DAR Mishandling of a Membership Application
Posted by: Wayne Witt Bates (ID *****7673)       Date: May 08, 2011 at
03:20:45


WITT-BATES REBUTTAL TO THE ABOVE

CURRENT RIGID METHODOLOGY RENDERS DAR IMMUNE TO LOGIC
DAR Questionable “Empirical, Rhetorical, Methodology and Standards” involved

Mistakes need to be addressed if the Credibility of the DAR is not to suffer

DAR Application – Rev. War Soldier Reuben Bates (1731-1800) of Louisa Co., VA -
(PROVED BY PAGE 94 OF LISTING WAR VOL. 4)

SERVICE RECORD
"Bates, Reuben - Soldier of the Infantry - paid by Mr. Duval on March 4, 1783 - 36.0.0"

TRANSCRIPT - QUOTING DAR
Perception of the DAR Genealogists Addressed–Short Version
------------------------------------------------------------
(DAR 3 Feb 2011)
”you have nothing that links Reuben (Junior) to Reuben (Senior)...”

(Bates 16 Feb. 2011)
above said In the face of 3 items that linked Reuben to Reuben.
(Bible page - Statement from Junior – DNA Confirmation)
-----------------------------------------------------------
(DAR 3 Feb. 2011)
DAR conjured up “potential fathers” for Reuben Bates Jr., but didn’t name them

DISCUSSION: Took some 3 weeks to obtain names of the “potential fathers, but took only two minutes to disown them. They were from Loudoun Co., not Louisa Co.
------------------------------------------------------------
(DAR 3 Feb. 2011)
“The other Bates family members found in the same list (War Vol. 4)are from Culpeper Co. not Louisa.”

(Bates 16 Feb. 2011)
Not so.“This Bates was Rev. War Soldier James Bates (1762-1825) of Louisa Co. not Culpeper Co.

Page 100 War Vol. 4
Bates, James – Soldier of Infantry – pd by himself – 18 Aug 1783 – 17.0.0
Bates, James – Soldier of Infantry – pd by himself – 18 Aug 1783 – 49.10.10
------------------------------------------------------------
(DAR 3 Feb. 2011)
“Unfortunately the supposition put forward by Mr. Bates that Mr. Duvall who received Reuben’s pay he would have been identified as Maj.Duvall.”

(Bates 16 Feb. 2011)
”It’s reasonable,, not unfortunate, that in 1783 two years after the War,that Maj. Duvall was referred to as Mister Duvall, who was a taxpayer in Louisa Co. the residence of Rev. War Soldier Reuben Bates,SR.

DISCUSSION: Later sent DAR proof that Mister Duval, who picked up pay due Reuben Bates Pay in 1783, was the only Duval in Louisa Co. in year 1783.

ADDED PROOF
William Duval Pension S8362 proved that ex-officer William Duval and Mister Duval of Louiaa Co., VA werre oner and the4 same
------------------------------------------------------------
DAR 3 Feb. 2011)
“We understand that this not the news you were expecting to hear.” (a school-yard Taunt)

(Bates 16 Feb. 2011)
“Certainly unexpected, in view of the overwhelming evidence he had at his disposal in our letter with its 8 closures.”
7/17/2011 1:24:58 PM EDTRecommendReport
----------------------------------------------------
BettyLou4U
“no further attention being given your matter — even if you are able to find new documentation that proves service of the individual in question.”

In other words, "You've proven us wrong and we're gonna be all pissy about it because we're a bunch of snotty twits who think we're always right even when we're wrong."

What a bunch of losers the DAR is.
7/16/2011 9:33:03 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 2 readersReport

eflag25
I could join many times over if I chose, but I remember my grandmother telling me how she had been accepted and was ready to become an active member of the DAR when they refused permission for a black opera singer to perform in their building and Eleanor Roosevelt stepped in to save
the day. Mrs. Roosevelt cancelled her own membership and so did my grandmother. She was very proud of doing so and told me not to be bothered with such bigoted stuffy women's groups. Our ancestry is not really important but what we do with our own lives is important, and it is not enhanced by these silly women who think their value depends on who their forebears were.
7/16/2011 2:09:39 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 2 readersReport

chaos1
The DAR? Aren't they the people who wouldn't let Marian Anderson sing in their cheesy hall?
7/16/2011 12:30:59 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 3 readersReport

FIREDRAGON47
Mr Bates seems like a nice man with lots of energy. I wish him luck,but think that he's wasting his time banging up against this elitist BS private club.
7/16/2011 10:28:39 AM EDTUnrecommendRecommended by 4 readers and youReport

treadlefish
It's not just the DAR. An Ancestor of my husbands waged a 27 year fight with Federal Government trying to get a Revolutionary War Widow's pension for his mother.
7/16/2011 10:27:20 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 2 readersReport

overhereontheleft
I know this is important to many but as far as I'm concerned, the DAR ceased being anything relevant when Eleanor Roosevelt quit them in 1939.
7/16/2011 12:42:03 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 3 readersReport

thedefendantX
JoG2: If, as you claim, " this private organization honors" the Patriot ancestors by ancestors with blood ties to them, but why the emphasis on genetic ancestry as a qualification? Especially if you're promoting civics based on the Declaration of Independence, that is, our ideals,
not your ancestry?? Yet Jean3 claims that Pres. Obama and his family are eligible for SAR/DAR membership,although his father was Kenyan and his mother's family emigrated to the states after the Revolution. I can understand what motivated the American Patriot ancestors of the SAR/DAR in the Revolution, but for the life of me I don't understand what would have motivated Michelle Obama's slave ancestors to fight for SAR/DAR ancestors who not only owned them but who did all sorts of horrible things to them as described in Harriett Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin and Dred novels. You won't get me to believe that the slaves were masochists. But it's seems so very nice of Jean3 to say that the DAR
honors Native Americans and African Americans who fought for the Patriot cause. But if there were Natives in the Revolution, what were they fighting for? Not for the same thing as Washington and Jefferson? Not for citizenship, nor to protect Native American treaty rights and territory: perhaps it was for firewater. And were slaves taking up arms
in the Revolution against the British for justice, freedom and equality? Washington in South Carolina once considered a blanket offer shades of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation) of freedom as a lure to slaves to offset the British offer for slaves taking up arms against the Patriots. Only problem was that white Patriots were also fighting to protect their rights to enslave African Americans. And Washington never issued the offer. Your responses confirm my belief that SAR/DAR are really about racial genetic ancestral ties to the Revolutionary
Patriots and only in passing about American political ideals. It made no sense for slaves to fight for their enslavement. And it made even less sense for a Native American to fight to have his freedom and land taken away from him by DAR ancestors once the Patriots had kicked out
the British and could abrogate the colonial treaties against seizure of tribal territory.
7/15/2011 10:49:05 PM EDTRecommendReport

Jean3
Then how do you explain the fact that there are African American SAR and DAR members? (And yes, I know about the Lena Ferguson case, and I knew Lena herself. I've also met her nephew Maurice who is in SAR.)
7/16/2011 12:15:42 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 1 readerReport

Jean3
It was the *chapter* that opposed Lena joining it, not the DAR opposing her as a whole. Chapters vote on new members; that's part of following regulations as a non-profit membership group. I'm sure there are many,many chapters that I would not want to join.
7/16/2011 12:21:15 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 1 readerReport

morattico
"Genealogist Thomas Ragusin, in a letter to Adrian and Wayne Bates,said the Duval on the payment record could not have been Maj. William Duval of Louisa because the record mentions “Mr. Duval,” not “Maj.Duval.”

Bates offers his own explanation for that. The war had been over for two years by then, and Duval would have returned to being a civilian."

I think Mr. Bates is incorrect on this point. Most people kept using their military titles long after their service was over. Even men who were rose to an officer's rank in the militia, some of whom had never been to war, tended to retain their military titles..7/15/2011 10:09:05 PM EDTRecommendReport

WittBates
I inow that Wayne Witt Bates was correct., in 1783 Mister William Duval was only Duval in Louisa Co., VA.

William Duval's pension S8362 states he lived in Louisa Co., VA. from 1781 to October 1783. Indeed, Mister Duval was one and the same as Ex-Major Duval, and he was the Mister Duval that picked-up the Soldier pay for his neighbor Rev.
War Soldier Reuben Bates.

Per DAR, proving that Ex-major William Duval was one and same as Mister Duval of Louisa Co., VA was the last hurdle in honoring the War Record of Reuben Bates.

So far, DAR has reneged on their word.

7/16/2011 12:15:16 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 2 readersReport

Sharon_59
I agree with the comment about the military rank. I've done research where officers in the F&I War who were old men by the time the Rev War came around were still using their F&I ranks even though they were now for the cause of Independence. Something as life-changing as the
Revolutionary War - I'm sure the guy wouldn't go back to citizen DuVal in such a short period of time.

However, based on a preponderance of the evidence, I think WW Bates has made a compelling case. I assume there is no paper record of signatures, etc extant to compare the correspondence in his pension file with that of the pay record.

The DAR will continue to state that they will never be able to prove that the Reuben Bates who received the money from Duval in 1781 is the same Reuben Bates of this family, though, and that is the unfortunate reality. Where did it state that the man receiving the money was a resident of Louisa County? Where are there any records pointing to a
Reuben Bates from any place else stating he served in this capacity during the Rev. War?
7/16/2011 6:52:56 PM EDTRecommendReport

MPATL
The DAR don't want to accept DNA because they'd be completely unable to control membership. DAR is nothing but a private social club of snobs who mistakenly believe they are somehow a superior form of US American Citizen than most...which is pure crap.

All "private" social clubs have one thing in common, controlling who can become a member. And this is not exclusive to white social clubs. Blacks have the same social clubs meant for "our kind of people". The same rules apply requiring the right look and pedigree, also crap. Jack
& Jill springs to mind.

Someone please remind these DAR idiots that "pedigree" is the name of a line of dog food for a reason.
7/15/2011 8:34:05 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 5 readersReport

chucke2
I think the DAR will never get over its Constitutional Hall DNA.
7/15/2011 8:07:31 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 3 readersReport

lillie2
I, too, had an ancestor that was initially rejected by the DAR.
However, I worked with a wonderful genealogist at DAR Headquarters, and we were able to successfully establish him as my ancestor and a Revolutionary War soldier. With each letter from the genealogist, I was told what was lacking, and so set out on a search to include that with my application. I was very grateful for all her help and assistance with this endeavor. I would like to note that I was already a member of this outstanding organization with a Revolutionary War ancestor on my mother's side. However, my father's family consisted of Irish immigrants who came to Canada, then the United States, then West Virginia. Their family information was much more difficult to find, but
through the help of the DAR genealogist, I was successful, and now have 24 cousins eligible for membership in the DAR.
7/15/2011 2:12:49 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 6 Readers Report
4 more (expand)

jkbalt
You see, if DAR accepted DNA testing, then they'd have to let a bunch of riffraff in.
7/15/2011 1:31:22 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 3 readersReport

JoG2
Don't be ridiculous. A lot of the men who fought in the Revolution were ordinary farmers or workers of many sorts. Do you really think they raised an army - which never had proper uniforms or even boots and winter clothes - purely from the large landowners and the genteel 'second sons' who settled in Virginia? Many of their descendents prospered in this land of opportunity, but of course some did not.
There were tough times for everybody at one time or another. I don't know how you define 'riffraff' but it has NOTHING to do with membership in the DAR. If you can prove an ancestor who fought - or otherwise contributed to the cause, you're eligible. I'm not an active member,but as an active genealogist, I did prove membership some years ago.
One of the advantages to that is access to the library full of genealogical info that the DAR holds. My ancestors in this line include a farmer's wife, a Chicago policeman, and a railroad worker. Not riffraff, of course, but certainly not the aristocratic crowd that your comment implies.
7/15/2011 2:11:46 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 4 readersReport

Bethesdan
DAR is a way for riffraff to make themselves feel aristocratic. And these aristocratic riffraff don't want DNA testing, because that would make it easier for ordinary riffraff to join. Especially the ones who may be illegitimate by-products of some revered ancestor.

Check out Grant Wood's deliciously ironic painting entitled "Daughters of Revolution," and it will give you a sense for what this organization is.
7/15/2011 5:36:19 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 1 readerReport

Jean3
As a member, I think it would be great for DAR to accept DNA proof AIUI, The Mayflower Society does.
7/15/2011 8:23:33 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 3 readersReport

thedefendantX
I hope my tax dollars aren't going into the hereditary exclusive clubs.The Sons and Daughters of the American Revolution both represent the very privileged institutions that the American Revolution fought to eradicate here. They belong in the United Kingdom which recognizes and
supports privilege as a cornerstone of social order and government. Our aims of liberty and equality clash with the whole idea of institutional privilege, which explains why both the Sons of the American Revolution and the DAR began as white racist organizations: the founders of this
country were mostly slave holders of black men and women, and neither the SAR or the DAR represent the slaves or their descendants, including the present First Lady.
7/15/2011 12:31:57 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 4 readersReport
7 more (expand)

homer4
So what if I found evidence that Reuben Bates was a Revolutionary War soldier, would I also be denied membership?

This is the same group that wouldn't allow Marian Anderson to sing in their hall in 1939 and also refused initially to allow African-Americans to be members.
7/15/2011 11:54:10 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 5 readersReport

huguenotklj
So what they did in 1939 is relevant to their membership today how? In 1939, the Marine Corps admitted ONLY white men. Does that mean the Marines are still a racist organization? Planned Parenthood used to favor eugenics. Is that relevant to who they are today?
7/15/2011 11:58:52 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 6 readersReport

thedefendantX
But the DAR is still largely a white racist organization. Neither Planned Parenthood or the US Marines are.
7/15/2011 1:36:15 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 3 readersReport

mortified469
DAR is nothing but a bunch of elitist white snobs. I'm really glad that they didn't permit Marian Anderson to sing in Constitution Hall (improperly named.) She instead sang on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial (aptly named) and lent herself to the iconic photos and recordings/film we have today.

Besides, the acoustics in DAR Hall are atrocious.

7/15/2011 2:25:20 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 2 readersReport

naomigoring
Without knowing what book Mr. Bates found his evidence in, I could not say that the Reuben Bates evidence was suffiicient to prove he was a Continental Line soldier. He could have been paid for providing a horse, for example.

As a private membership organization, DAR has a complete right to formulate its standards of proof as it wishes. Mr. Bates is fighting a lost cause.
7/15/2011 11:40:50 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 1 readerReport

WittBates
Pay stub
Vol. 4 Page 94
Bates Reuben - Soldier of the Infantry - paid by Mr Duval 4 March 1783 - 36 pounds

DAR said - last hurdle - prove Major Duval was one and the same as Mister Duval, who picked up Soldier Pay due Reuben Bates in March 1783.

Proved by William Duval's Pension No. S8362, Major Duval was one and the same as Mister Duval, who lived in Louisa Co. from 1781 until October 1783.

DAR reneged on their word, their last hurdle has been cleared and they still have not honored the service record of Reuben Bates Sr. (1731-1800)

Mr. Bates will continue to fight a lost cause until the wrong is made
right.
7/15/2011 5:42:52 PM EDTUnrecommendRecommended by 5 readers and youReport

jeadpt
It's DAR. Who cares.
7/15/2011 10:47:27 AM EDTRecommendRecommended by 8 readersReport

postmoderator
This comment has been deleted by a moderator for violating the site's discussion policy.
7/15/2011 9:03:03 AM EDT

randompirate
I agree! Why are they so unwilling to trust reason, evidence, and science? This article makes DAR sound like a completely ridiculous organization.
7/15/2011 2:18:08 PM EDTRecommendRecommended by 2 readersReport




Notify Administrator about this message?
Followups:

Post FollowupReturn to Message ListingsPrint Message

http://genforum.genealogy.com/americanrev/messages/17498.html
Search this forum:

Search all of GenForum:

Proximity matching
Add this forum to My GenForum Link to GenForum
Add Forum
Home |  Help |  About Us |  Site Index |  Jobs |  PRIVACY |  Affiliate
© 2007 The Generations Network